Simviation Forum - NTSB releases report on Galloping Ghost crash

Aug 29^th, 2012 at 7:01am

wahubna Offline
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Short version
http://www.eaa.org/news/2012/2012-08-28_worn-parts-fatal-crash-at-reno.asp

Full NTSB brief
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/reno_nv/index.html

‎"At that time [1909] the chief engineer was almost always the chief test pilot as well. That had the fortunate result of eliminating poor engineering early in aviation."- Igor Sikorsky

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Reply #1 - Aug 29^th, 2012 at 1:10pm

C Offline
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The full brief is an interesting read. It seems there may have to be a culture change in unlimited air racing, and certainly it appears there will be a lot of engineering work (evaluation, testing and certification) in the near future if some of the top unlimiteds are in the same boat that "Galloping Ghost" was. In some ways, although a tragic loss of life, being at Reno there was plenty of visual evidence to help assess the cause.

I can see the logic of the high g recommendations, but sadly, as often the case with a structural failure at these speed, in this case even a G-suit would have been futile with a near instant application of 17G.

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Reply #2 - Aug 29^th, 2012 at 2:03pm

wahubna Offline
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C wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 1:10pm:

The full brief is an interesting read. It seems there may have to be a culture change in unlimited air racing, and certainly it appears there will be a lot of engineering work (evaluation, testing and certification) in the near future if some of the top unlimiteds are in the same boat that "Galloping Ghost" was. In some ways, although a tragic loss of life, being at Reno there was plenty of visual evidence to help assess the cause.

I can see the logic of the high g recommendations, but sadly, as often the case with a structural failure at these speed, in this case even a G-suit would have been futile with a near instant application of 17G.

I have to agree with the g-suit thing. 17Gs instantaneously is far more than anyone can handle when it is a surprise. Fighter pilots the world over in 5th gen and 4.5 gen fighters are all limited to ~9gs with very temporary exceptions of 10-13gs....and still that beats the snot out of a fighter pilot that spends year after year pulling G WITH a g-suit, so a civilian race pilot in a structural failure scenario has 0 chance of handling the sudden un expected onset of heavy G...like you said.

About the regulations of the racers, Im torn. On the one hand you cant argue with safety, but on the other, anyone that has read through aviation history knows how air racing today is very small and very fragile compared to the 'Golden Years' when air racing was popular. I regularly have to explain the Reno Air Races to even aviation minded people. The main stream media only talks about it when there is a crash and even the main stream sports networks do not cover it. My point, more regulations could just push air racing even closer to extinction.

‎"At that time [1909] the chief engineer was almost always the chief test pilot as well. That had the fortunate result of eliminating poor engineering early in aviation."- Igor Sikorsky

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Reply #3 - Aug 29^th, 2012 at 2:30pm

C Offline
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Earth

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wahubna wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 2:03pm:

About the regulations of the racers, Im torn. On the one hand you cant argue with safety, but on the other, anyone that has read through aviation history knows how air racing today is very small and very fragile compared to the 'Golden Years' when air racing was popular. I regularly have to explain the Reno Air Races to even aviation minded people. The main stream media only talks about it when there is a crash and even the main stream sports networks do not cover it. My point, more regulations could just push air racing even closer to extinction.

It's whether the risk is acceptable. Had the incident occurred half way around the course, these recommendation may have had less impact. Sadly for everyone it happened where it did, and killed an unacceptably high number of people. My definition of that, for an airshow, or Reno for example, is one, or the crew. No spectator should be in danger.

What it probably will mean is that the highly modified top end of the unlimited competition gets a little smaller, and the unmodified/less modified unlimited competitors may increase.

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Reply #4 - Aug 29^th, 2012 at 3:24pm

Cherokee Flyer Offline
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salt Lake,Utah

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This is link to the entire public docket with some pic of plane damage,almost 1000 pages.

http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=51746&CurrentPage=1&EndRo...

Quote:

It seems there may have to be a culture change in unlimited air racing, and certainly it appears there will be a lot of engineering work (evaluation, testing and certification) in the near future if some of the top unlimiteds are in the same boat that "Galloping Ghost" was.

This class of air racing is called Unlimited for a reason,Its a test bed for going as fast as you can,with "No limits".
Guess you could do like NASCAR and start putting limits on them (think carb plates),and change the name to ????
Don't get me wrong I'm all for the safety of everyone ,but with no risk in anything we do,where would we get in life.

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Reply #5 - Aug 29^th, 2012 at 3:43pm

C Offline
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Cherokee Flyer wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 3:24pm:

This class of air racing is called Unlimited for a reason,Its a test bed for going as fast as you can,with "No limits".

Yeah, and you can still do that. It's just what's been recommended is that heavily structurally modified aircraft are done so in a tested and controlled fashion. No one's saying anything about limiting the performance, just achieving it using a sound engineering process.

Tuning an engine to 1000hp greater than production hp, then just clipping the wings and putting a bigger rudder on just doesn't cut it anymore.

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Reply #6 - Aug 29^th, 2012 at 4:30pm

wahubna Offline
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C wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 3:43pm:

Cherokee Flyer wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 3:24pm:

This class of air racing is called Unlimited for a reason,Its a test bed for going as fast as you can,with "No limits".

Yeah, and you can still do that. It's just what's been recommended is that heavily structurally modified aircraft are done so in a tested and controlled fashion. No one's saying anything about limiting the performance, just achieving it using a sound engineering process.

Tuning an engine to 1000hp greater than production hp, then just clipping the wings and putting a bigger rudder on just doesn't cut it anymore.

VERY very true. Im sure a lot of ground crews are getting really nervous about the mods the have done to their planes....Precious Metal, Rare Bear, Strega, and Czech Mate Im talking to you....

‎"At that time [1909] the chief engineer was almost always the chief test pilot as well. That had the fortunate result of eliminating poor engineering early in aviation."- Igor Sikorsky

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Reply #7 - Aug 29^th, 2012 at 4:52pm

C Offline
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Earth

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wahubna wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 4:30pm:

VERY very true. Im sure a lot of ground crews are getting really nervous about the mods the have done to their planes....Precious Metal, Rare Bear, Strega, and Czech Mate Im talking to you....

Hopefully they've done the work, or are doing it. Galloping Ghost's crash was worrying in that it was a component that you'd think on all the various Mustang unlimiteds seemed untouched; the tailplane.

That said, I can't think of any other unlimiteds in recent history which have suffered a structural failure. All the incidents in recent memory before this were mainly engine related.

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Reply #8 - Aug 29^th, 2012 at 5:03pm

Fozzer Offline
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An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.

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C wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 4:52pm:

wahubna wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 4:30pm:

VERY very true. Im sure a lot of ground crews are getting really nervous about the mods the have done to their planes....Precious Metal, Rare Bear, Strega, and Czech Mate Im talking to you....

Hopefully they've done the work, or are doing it. Galloping Ghost's crash was worrying in that it was a component that you'd think on all the various Mustang unlimiteds seemed untouched; the tailplane.

That said, I can't think of any other unlimiteds in recent history which have suffered a structural failure. All the incidents in recent memory before this were mainly engine related.

One that always springs to my mind....>>>

Yak 50.

http://shortfinals.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/yak-50-a-dangerous-winner/

Paul.

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Reply #9 - Aug 29^th, 2012 at 6:21pm

C Offline
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Earth

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Fozzer wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 5:03pm:

One that always springs to my mind....>>>

Yak 50.

http://shortfinals.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/yak-50-a-dangerous-winner/

Paul.

A more successful one, by one of Britain's finest pilots:

http://www.eaa.org/intheloop/articles/1007_instruction.asp

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