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Question: Is Flight a Simulator?
*** This poll has now closed ***


Yes    
  9 (23.1%)
No    
  15 (38.5%)
Sort of    
  10 (25.6%)
Not sure    
  5 (12.8%)




Total votes: 39
« Created by: andy190 on: Apr 20th, 2012 at 5:31pm »

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Is Flight a Simulator? (Read 8632 times)
Reply #30 - Apr 25th, 2012 at 7:53pm

andy190   Offline
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Ah but Doug you forgot the Golden Rule:

All Simulators are Games BUT,

Not all Games are Simulators.
 

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Reply #31 - Apr 25th, 2012 at 7:59pm

Flying Trucker   Offline
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Grin Grin Grin

How true Andy... Smiley

Here is an interesting Link and why motion is required to be a Flight Simulator...

http://www.pilotfriend.com/aeromed/medical/spat_disorientation.htm

Some interesting statistics there also... Wink

Without motion FSX sitting on a desk top with flight yokes, rudder pedals etc. can not duplicate pilot disorientation, not even the old girl rocking my computer chair while I am using FSX can duplicate pilot disorientation... Smiley

Here is another two interesting Links...

http://airspeedonline.blogspot.ca/2009/02/spatial-disorientation-simulator.html

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa17.pdf
 

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
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Reply #32 - Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:30pm

pete   Offline
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Flight simulator .... PC flight simulator ..... different.

One crucial point -- Lockheed Martin haven't adopted FSX (renamed prepar3d) as a game.

Quote from their main page
Training meets reality with Lockheed Martin’s Prepar3D® simulation software. ... Prepar3D (pronounced “prepared”) is a visual simulation platform that allows users to create training scenarios across aviation, maritime and ground domains.
 

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Reply #33 - Apr 26th, 2012 at 1:11pm

Fozzer   Offline
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http://www.prepar3d.com/prepar3d-license-comparison/

Quote:
...use...not for Personal, Consumer, Entertainment Product...
End quote.

Excludes the likes of us?

Paul.
 

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Reply #34 - Apr 26th, 2012 at 1:29pm

Hagar   Offline
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Fozzer wrote on Apr 26th, 2012 at 1:11pm:
http://www.prepar3d.com/prepar3d-license-comparison/

Quote:
...use...not for Personal, Consumer, Entertainment Product...
End quote.

I think that proves Pete's point.

Quote:
Excludes the likes of us?

Paul.

Not necessarily. The Academic licence is $49.95. Once you have it on your computer I see no reason why you can't use it for whatever purpose you want. http://www.prepar3d.com/prepar3d-academic/


Uses

    * Classroom
    * Home
    * Educational programs, such as summer camps and after school programs

 

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Reply #35 - Apr 27th, 2012 at 5:07pm

Flight Ace   Offline
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Flying Trucker wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 7:59pm:
Grin Grin Grin

How true Andy... Smiley

Here is an interesting Link and why motion is required to be a Flight Simulator...

http://www.pilotfriend.com/aeromed/medical/spat_disorientation.htm

Some interesting statistics there also... Wink

Without motion FSX sitting on a desk top with flight yokes, rudder pedals etc. can not duplicate pilot disorientation, not even the old girl rocking my computer chair while I am using FSX can duplicate pilot disorientation... Smiley

Here is another two interesting Links...

http://airspeedonline.blogspot.ca/2009/02/spatial-disorientation-simulator.html

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa17.pdf


Flying Tucker,

If you meant to say, "Here is an interesting Link indicating why motion in a simulator used for flight crew training is required by the Government", I would agree with you. I have sat, as President, on military Accident Investigation Boards where Vertigo was the major contributing factor to the cause of an accident. In most instances the pilot was not instrument rated.
 

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Reply #36 - Apr 27th, 2012 at 7:39pm

Flying Trucker   Offline
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Hi Flight Ace

"Here is an interesting Link indicating why motion in a simulator used for flight crew training is required by the Government", I would agree with you

Okay I can agree with what you think my statement should have been typed out as...no problem there... Grin

However using a desk top computer with the Microsoft Games installed does not make it a Flight Simulator.

I found that in most definitions of Flight there was mention of motion...
ex.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flight

We can not duplicate flight without motion and it is as simple as that.

Unless the Microsoft Programs such as FSX and FS2004 are installed on a system with motion then the best they can be is Training Aids or a Game for personal enjoyment... Smiley





« Last Edit: Apr 28th, 2012 at 9:47am by Flying Trucker »  

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
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Reply #37 - May 7th, 2012 at 10:54am

Flight Ace   Offline
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Flying Trucker wrote on Apr 27th, 2012 at 7:39pm:
Hi Flight Ace

"Here is an interesting Link indicating why motion in a simulator used for flight crew training is required by the Government", I would agree with you

Okay I can agree with what you think my statement should have been typed out as...no problem there... Grin

However using a desk top computer with the Microsoft Games installed does not make it a Flight Simulator.

I found that in most definitions of Flight there was mention of motion...
ex.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flight

We can not duplicate flight without motion and it is as simple as that.

Unless the Microsoft Programs such as FSX and FS2004 are installed on a system with motion then the best they can be is Training Aids or a Game for personal enjoyment... Smiley







Is Microsoft Flight a Flight Simulator? Here are the answers from 33 Flight Simmers.

Yes  7 (21.2%)
No  13 (39.4%)
Sort of  10 (30.3%)
Not sure  3 (9.1%)

Here is some discussion and my interpretation of the results.

Flight means Flying through the air like a bird or plane?

Simulator or simulate means making something appear like the real thing?

Flight Simulator means to replicate a real airplane flying (moving) through a simulated atmosphere over a simulated landscape?

Do MF and FSX fit in with these statements? The answer to all three is yes.

Do they meet the requirements to train flight crews for the Army, Air Force, Marines, or Navy?  No, To meet these requirements the flight simulator operator (pilot) must experience realistic physical flight movements (up/down/left/right/stall/spin).

Go to this site and you will find a man and his home built $150,000 Flight simulator in his garage. It has a real Boeing 737 cabin, real 737 panel and real 737 flight controls.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/18/boeing-737-flight-simulat_n_1434665.htm...

Like FSX and MF, flight simulation is accomplished using a computerized program and by physically moving the controls replicates flight through and over a simulated atmosphere and landscape. And like FM and FSX, One's body does not move. Is this very expensive Home Build really a Flight Simulator?

Here are two statements I am quoting from the Microsoft Flight web site

"Whether you’re at 20,000 feet or just inches above the surface, you’ll experience visually stunning and realistic real-word landscapes with authentic weather patterns, terrain, landmarks and flight physics. See the world from inside a highly detailed and accurate cockpit, or zoom out and fly using the exterior airplane view."

"Microsoft Flight has a deep heritage with flight simulators and has built in many new features and honored traditional features for both casual and experienced virtual pilots alike."

Although Microsoft refers to MF as a game, they link it to Flight Simulation.

Now my interpretation of the results.

We have 13 No's leaving no room for change.
We have 10 Sort Of's leaving no room for change
The 3 Not Sure's could be either way so are not counted.
The 7 Yes's, as a minimum, could be considered as Sort Of's.

Adding the 7 yes's to the 10 Sort of's gives us 17 Sort Of's as compared to 13 No's.

This poll was quite informative and I can can agree that Microsoft Flight can be considered as a Sort of Flight Simulator.

« Last Edit: May 7th, 2012 at 3:20pm by Flight Ace »  

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Reply #38 - May 7th, 2012 at 3:31pm

Rocket_Bird   Offline
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Flying Trucker wrote on Apr 27th, 2012 at 7:39pm:
Hi Flight Ace

"Here is an interesting Link indicating why motion in a simulator used for flight crew training is required by the Government", I would agree with you

Okay I can agree with what you think my statement should have been typed out as...no problem there... Grin

However using a desk top computer with the Microsoft Games installed does not make it a Flight Simulator.

I found that in most definitions of Flight there was mention of motion...
ex.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flight

We can not duplicate flight without motion and it is as simple as that.

Unless the Microsoft Programs such as FSX and FS2004 are installed on a system with motion then the best they can be is Training Aids or a Game for personal enjoyment... Smiley




A piece of software for the desktop computer can simulate motion, but perhaps not in the tactile kind of way unless it is geared for that purpose Wink

The most simple definition of a simulator is trying to simulate an environment, usually to serve a purpose such as training.  In a sense, I think programs like FSX, X-Plane, and MS Flight can each serve as a simulator to a certain extent.  The merits on how much of a simulator it is, however, is in my opinion gauged by how realistically the software is designed to do so.  Here, MS Flight seems to be more geared towards a casual audience, and the game likewise delivers scenarios that are somewhat borderline fantasy. 

As for other software, like FSX, or even X-Plane... well, I've seen them make their way into commercial flight training institutions as sims that are in fact, recognized by the government as "flight simulators," for the training of civilian flight crews (usually instrument work).  My very first commercial sim I've jumped into utilized a pretty simple yoke and throttle system and ran a primitive and modified version of x-plane with no motion whatsoever other than force feedback on the controls.  It was still recognized as a flight simulator and I could still log sim hours in my log book. I've also jumped into a sim that ran some derivative of FSX, though it is situated on a moving platform that responds to command inputs.

Software like FSX and FS2004 may in many ways be considered "games," but they are no less simulators than some of the stuff I've seen.  I consider my desktop version of FSX a simulator--especially with some of the addons I use--for it portrays the aspects of cruising the air with a set of wings to a satisfying level and has also helped me train and prepare for real flights as well.  It certainly doesn't simulate everything (I don't think any simulator can take into account every variable that exists in real life), it still accomplishes it's goal of simulating something that is real.
 

Cheers,
RB

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Reply #39 - May 7th, 2012 at 5:08pm

jetprop   Offline
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Another thing is:its all there.
In FSX and other sims we can create gauges to interact with real life buttons,PMSG and accusim have proven that accurate systems can be simulated.

It can be made into a comercial sim,it just hasn't been done yet...
 

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Reply #40 - May 7th, 2012 at 6:10pm

andy190   Offline
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jetprop wrote on May 7th, 2012 at 5:08pm:
It can be made into a comercial sim,it just hasn't been done yet...


Actually FSX has. It was called Microsoft ESP I think.

Then MS sold it to Lockheed Martin who renamed it Prepar3D (also known as P3D).
 

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Reply #41 - May 11th, 2012 at 3:08am

SamYeager   Offline
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I voted yes because to me Flight offers the sensation of flying together with the use of VORs and ILS. The area in which it is possible to fly is more limited than  FSX but that doesn't prevent Flight from being a simulator.
 
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