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My word, Lockheed have finally realised... (Read 1663 times)
Dec 4
th
, 2011 at 6:15pm
C
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Earth
Posts: 13144
...they need to be a bit more creative with the C-130 family. I know it's good, but after all, it's still essentially an aeroplane using 1950's vintage aerodynamics!
Anyway, here's the new C-130XJ and C-130NG.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2011/12/pictures-lockheed-unveils-...
Between the lines, it seems the 'XJ will be a "budget" version of the C-130J for the export market. The 'NG will feature a redesigned nose and tail, and new wing tips (I'm surprised they haven't redesigned a completely new wing).
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Reply #1 -
Dec 4
th
, 2011 at 6:23pm
Dave71k
Ex Member
If it isn't broke don't fix it. The C130 maybe old but it does it's job very well! So why change it for the sake of changing it.
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Reply #2 -
Dec 4
th
, 2011 at 6:32pm
expat
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C-130 NG, so the rest will now be referred to as the C-130 classic
.
Looks like Lockheed are taking a leaf out of Boeing's book. This is what they have been doing with the 737 for the last 45 years. In 2009 Boeing announced a series of planned improvements to the 737 to increase fuel efficiency by 2%. We have just taken delivery of a couple of these aircraft. One of the improvements, and I had to pick myself up off the floor when I read and then saw was to the lower beacon. It has taken Boeing 43 years to work out that the old upturned jam jar was not quite as aerodynamic as they thought it could be and have now replaced it with a nice bit of teardrop glass
Now they have moved on from the NG to 737 MAX, the same old aircraft with a few tweaks. Give it a few years and we will have the 737 MAX NG
Matt
PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals.
B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
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Reply #3 -
Dec 4
th
, 2011 at 6:52pm
C
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Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
expat wrote
on Dec 4
th
, 2011 at 6:32pm:
C-130 NG, so the rest will now be referred to as the C-130 classic
.
Looks like Lockheed are taking a leaf out of Boeing's book.
I suspect the 'NG will be almost a new aeroplane. Lockheed has good reason to keep the C-130 "brand" going, as opposed to starting with a clean sheet, which over the next decade may well be the thing to do.
I know there's the old "if it ain't broke" argument, but aerodynamically it's a 57 year old beast, which must know be positively archaic where the old air molecules are concerned!
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Reply #4 -
Dec 5
th
, 2011 at 1:32am
Jayhawk Jake
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Wichita, KS
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Posts: 483
C wrote
on Dec 4
th
, 2011 at 6:52pm:
expat wrote
on Dec 4
th
, 2011 at 6:32pm:
C-130 NG, so the rest will now be referred to as the C-130 classic
.
Looks like Lockheed are taking a leaf out of Boeing's book.
I suspect the 'NG will be almost a new aeroplane. Lockheed has good reason to keep the C-130 "brand" going, as opposed to starting with a clean sheet, which over the next decade may well be the thing to do.
I know there's the old "if it ain't broke" argument, but aerodynamically it's a 57 year old beast, which must know be positively archaic where the old air molecules are concerned!
Air is still air. While the C-130 probably could benefit from fresh take, it's excellent at what it does and that's all that matters. I doubt it will benefit much from those winglets anyways, and a new nose is easy to do for a plane like this. It looks like the vertical tail has been changed, but the sweep looks about the same and it probably has lower loading than the current tail, so that should be an easy integration.
Minor changes to update an old airframe, but the C-130 is far from out of date. It's hard to do it's mission any better than it already does, so why invest a ton of money to fix something that isn't broken?
AMD Athalon X6 1090T 3.2Ghz::EVGA nVidia GeForce GTX 560Ti 2GB GDDR5::8GB RAM
*The opinions expressed above are my own and are in no way representative of fact or opinion of any other person, corporation, or company.*
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Reply #5 -
Jan 5
th
, 2012 at 9:42pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
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I was reading about this at work last year:
Quote:
Lockheed Developing Winglets For C-130, C-5
Oct 6, 2011
Lockheed Martin is testing winglets and other drag-reducing modifications to cut the fuel consumption of C-130 Hercules and C-5 Galaxy airlifters.
With large-scale wind tunnel testing completed, Lockheed is fabricating a shipset of winglets for flight testing on a C-130 in 2012. The modification could be available for both retrofit and forward-fit by early 2014.
Computational analysis and small-scale tunnel tests have been completed on the C-5 winglets. Large-scale tunnel tests are planned for 2012, leading to flight tests in 2014 “if the customer is interested,” says Jack O’Banion, director of advanced development programs at Lockheed’s Marietta, Ga., plant.
The 5-ft.-tall winglets are projected to reduce cruise fuel flow by 170 lb./hr. on the C-130J and “probably more” on older versions of the Hercules, he says. They are designed to be fitted to any C-130 with the beefed-up “enhanced service life” center wingbox. This has the extra structural margin to accommodate winglet-induced bending loads.
Winglets for the C-5M are 6 ft. tall and projected to reduce cruise fuel flow by 1,100 lb./hr. This is on top of the 8-20% improvement in fuel efficiency that comes with re-engining of the C-5 with General Electric CF6-80C2 high-bypass turbofans, O’Banion says, adding that the wing already has sufficient margin to accommodate the winglet loads.
Lockheed Martin in August flight tested an aft-body drag-reduction modification on the C-130. This comprises a series of 36 vortex generators mounted on the aft fuselage. These “microvanes” alter the aft-body flowfield to pull the underbody vortex closer in and reduce base drag, he says.
Results are still being analyzed, but indications are the microvanes will reduce total drag by up to 3.7%, O’Banion says, for a fuel-consumption reduction of 2-3%. No significant changes in aircraft handling have been observed, he says.
The vortex generators, mounted in rows on the aft fuselage on either side of the rear loading ramp, are planned to be available by the end of 2012 for forward-fit and retrofit to the C-130J and earlier Hercules.
Another fuel-saving modification being studied for older C-130s is an upgrade to the latest Series 3.5 version of Rolls-Royce’s T56 turboprop, coupled with Hamilton Sundstrand’s NP2000 eight-blade propeller.
For the C-5, Lockheed also is working on a drag cleanup that is expected to improve fuel efficiency by 2-3%. This would include new seals on the flight controls to minimize aerodynamic leaks that cause drag; and new seals in the pressurization system to reduce bleed-air demand on the engines and thus improve their fuel efficiency.
In addition, equipment installed on the C-5s over time — such as defensive systems — would be cleaned up to reduce parasitic drag. “We are in the process of laying out a detailed program for the Air Force, including the business case and potential benefits,” O’Banion says.
The C-130 and C-5 drag reductions are part of an initiative by the U.S. Air Force to cut its fuel consumption. Other elements include drag cleanups on the Boeing C-17 and KC-10 and engine upgrades on the KC-135.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news...
The C-130XL, that was to compete with the A400M gets my attention more.
Quote:
Lockheed Explores Niche For Widebody C-130
Oct 1, 2008
Lockheed Martin is studying widebody derivatives of its Hercules military airlifter able to carry larger loads, but believes the “C-130XL” would only be a niche product and not a replacement for its C-130J tactical transport.
The C-130XL is one of several concepts being studied to fill the “white space” requirement for intra-theater transport of heavy U.S. Army equipment in the 2020 timeframe, says Jim Grant, vice president of business development for global mobility.
“If today the C-130J can carry 95-percent-plus of everything in theater, in 2015-25 we still see the J carrying 90 percent of what the Army wants to move,” he says. “But there are some vehicles [such as the Future Combat Systems] that will be too big for the J.”
As a result, Lockheed Martin sees a “small white space to carry outsize equipment that will have to be moved by something,” Grant says, and it is looking at “how to fill that white space in the out-years.”
In addition to three notional sizes of larger C-130J derivative, the company is studying stealthy short-takeoff-and-landing (STOL) concepts for the Air Force and tiltrotor vertical-takeoff-and-landing (VTOL) concepts for the Army.
The Air Force and Army are trying to combine their battlefield transport requirements under the Joint Future Theater Lift program, but it is not clear whether their competing desires for STOL and VTOL capability can be reconciled in one program.
“There are things we don’t know,” Grant says. “What payload? What ranges? What runway conditions? If they need Hercules-size field operations, then could it be a derivative of the C-130?
“If it’s down in the 1,000-2,000 foot STOL, none of the aircraft out there can routinely do that,” he says. “If the Army pushes hard for VTOL, none of today’s aircraft can carry an FCS-size vehicle in a vertical environment.”
The three sizes of conceptual C-130XL being studied are targeted at payloads of around 62,000, 72,000 and 80,000-85,000 pounds — up from around 42,000 pounds for the C-130J. All would have a wider, but not necessarily longer, fuselage.
“If we size the payload bay to handle larger vehicles, how much do we have to change about the aircraft? Can we increase the STOL capabilities? That depends on the requirements,” he says.
While a 62,000-pound payload design could use the C-130J’s wing and engines, the larger concepts would require more changes. “What can we do with the current propulsion? At what point do we need different propulsion? We are looking at all options,” he says.
Lockheed Martin sees a C-130XL complementing and not replacing the C-130J. “It would run in parallel, to meet a very specific requirement,” Grant says. Although it could end up similar in size to the Airbus A400M, he does not foresee a big international demand for a larger Hercules. “You could see a small fleet within a fleet – someone with 12 Js and two to three XLs.”
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Reply #6 -
Jan 6
th
, 2012 at 5:33pm
Bud Greene
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Cool! I live in Atlanta and frequently see 130J's. Hope to see the NG before too long.
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Reply #7 -
Jan 6
th
, 2012 at 5:59pm
Fishbed7701
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I think the C130, along with the F-15, and B-52 are some of the best aircraft anyone has manufactured. These aircraft have been in service for so long, and are still competing with newer generation aircraft. I think these old aircraft will become legends, like the B-17 and P-51.
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Reply #8 -
Jan 7
th
, 2012 at 10:12am
Jayhawk Jake
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Wichita, KS
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Fishbed7701 wrote
on Jan 6
th
, 2012 at 5:59pm:
I think the C130, along with the F-15, and B-52 are some of the best aircraft anyone has manufactured. These aircraft have been in service for so long, and are still competing with newer generation aircraft. I think these old aircraft will become legends, like the B-17 and P-51.
The B-52 will likely be in service until all of us are dead and gone.
AMD Athalon X6 1090T 3.2Ghz::EVGA nVidia GeForce GTX 560Ti 2GB GDDR5::8GB RAM
*The opinions expressed above are my own and are in no way representative of fact or opinion of any other person, corporation, or company.*
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Reply #9 -
Jan 8
th
, 2012 at 4:45pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
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Jayhawk Jake wrote
on Jan 7
th
, 2012 at 10:12am:
Fishbed7701 wrote
on Jan 6
th
, 2012 at 5:59pm:
I think the C130, along with the F-15, and B-52 are some of the best aircraft anyone has manufactured. These aircraft have been in service for so long, and are still competing with newer generation aircraft. I think these old aircraft will become legends, like the B-17 and P-51.
The B-52 will likely be in service until all of us are dead and gone.
And that really really scares me, Knowing that Generals will still be trying to insist that Great great grand kids fly a WWII designed planed into Modern Combat, just because it has low flight hours.
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Reply #10 -
Jan 9
th
, 2012 at 6:01pm
Jayhawk Jake
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Wichita, KS
Gender:
Posts: 483
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 8
th
, 2012 at 4:45pm:
Jayhawk Jake wrote
on Jan 7
th
, 2012 at 10:12am:
Fishbed7701 wrote
on Jan 6
th
, 2012 at 5:59pm:
I think the C130, along with the F-15, and B-52 are some of the best aircraft anyone has manufactured. These aircraft have been in service for so long, and are still competing with newer generation aircraft. I think these old aircraft will become legends, like the B-17 and P-51.
The B-52 will likely be in service until all of us are dead and gone.
And that really really scares me, Knowing that Generals will still be trying to insist that Great great grand kids fly a WWII designed planed into Modern Combat, just because it has low flight hours.
The B-52 is an excellent design and it's very well maintained. I don't see a problem with it.
AMD Athalon X6 1090T 3.2Ghz::EVGA nVidia GeForce GTX 560Ti 2GB GDDR5::8GB RAM
*The opinions expressed above are my own and are in no way representative of fact or opinion of any other person, corporation, or company.*
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Reply #11 -
Jan 11
th
, 2012 at 11:39pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
Gender:
Posts: 1148
Jayhawk Jake wrote
on Jan 9
th
, 2012 at 6:01pm:
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 8
th
, 2012 at 4:45pm:
Jayhawk Jake wrote
on Jan 7
th
, 2012 at 10:12am:
Fishbed7701 wrote
on Jan 6
th
, 2012 at 5:59pm:
I think the C130, along with the F-15, and B-52 are some of the best aircraft anyone has manufactured. These aircraft have been in service for so long, and are still competing with newer generation aircraft. I think these old aircraft will become legends, like the B-17 and P-51.
The B-52 will likely be in service until all of us are dead and gone.
And that really really scares me, Knowing that Generals will still be trying to insist that Great great grand kids fly a WWII designed planed into Modern Combat, just because it has low flight hours.
The B-52 is an excellent design and it's very well maintained. I don't see a problem with it.
It is a 1952 design, that was kept because it had no computers and was easy to maintain, 50+years latter they are trying to stuff modern computers into, the original manufacture of parts suppliers are nonexistent, it was supposed to be replaced in 70's, and now the airmen who work on it, are forced to slave away keeping this old, inefficient technology working and flying.
I'm glad Lockheed made the "J" model, and forced people to upgrade away from the "E" and "H" so they can actually utilize newer technology, lighter materials, better more efficient motors, and take advantage of existing manufactures that are in business currently and are projected to be around for the next 15-20years.
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