Simviation Forum - Freeware development

Reply #45 - Aug 24^th, 2011 at 9:28am

Club508 Offline
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Well, i do know one possible positive. Depending on what's in the Eula and liscencing and whatnot, even if they make it so you can't do add-ons, it may still be possible. Like i said, depending on what's in the EULA and liscencing and stuff, hopefully, some people with atleast some basic game and software programing knowledge may be able to go into the game's lines of code and other programming and find a way to make it possible. But like I said, it could require some programming knowledge. I have created some computer games before and know some programming, but depending on how into Microsoft is on not letting people make add-ons, we may end up needing a proffesional or even someone from the company to get in. I just don't know. Undecided

But I do know one thing, pegger is kinda right on some things. Unless any of us work for or have good connections to Microsoft, there's not much else we can do but wait. and hope. Undecided

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Reply #46 - Aug 24^th, 2011 at 9:39am

hyperpep111 Offline
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First of all welcome pegger Wink

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

So much negativity...to quote as previously said.

Why would 3rd party addons not exist? Even for your run of the mill PC games out there today that are not in the least bit designed to be open source, there exists large volumes of addons (also known as hacks or mods) that are created by those users who are so inclined and interested in doing so. And those interested in adding the mods to their games drive the ambition of the developers to make the mods and to find ways to distribute them.

And to assume that the lack of a scheduled 3rd party addon system for Flight is what is going to kill the franchize....really? I think the existence of the addon community is driven by the users, not the producers. Most of us are here simply as leeches, and fewer serve as the peers (to put it in terms of file sharing, which is essentially what is going on here, but not in the illegal way).

If you all decide to turn your back on new versions of simulators (or games, however you feel you need to refer to the program), then the franchise will not fail like some predict that it will. It will decline in popularity just like FS 2004 and FSX did, and get cheaper in the stores. And some of you will in turn buy it at a cheaper price, because you would have justified that to your self somehow or another that it was ok for cheap, but not for full price. Then Microsoft will react to your boycott by counting the money from the last release, regardless of if it sold for full release price, or decreased on-the-way-out price (which still = profit by the way), and then evaluate what the selling price for FS12 will be. And the cycle will go on and on.

Keep one thing in mind in software development....the programs are not made with longevity in mind. Programs are written to sell for profit, to a market that decides that it needs a newer copy of the program. Some are happy using older versions (who still runs office 2003?), while others like free ware (who runs Open Office?), and others like the newest version and could care less about the old expired and unsupported versions (who runs office 2010?).

So quit your griping about Flight, and what it will and won't be. Those that design it know for a fact that they will sell copies, and that there will be detractors to the new program. There always are detractors.

And for those that threaten to jump to other programs (xplane, etc...) the developers of those other programs depend on your negativity to get your dollars. Always about the dollars after all. And what if they sell to another development company, or suddenly decide to jump ship and change their philosophy on game design? What if the driving market force isn't all of us and our desire for free stuff, but it's 14 year old kids with short attention spans and their own credit cards? Have you ever thought that way about how a software company decides what the next game should be like?

If you like FS2004....keep on keeping on. If you like FSX....see you in the virtual sky. I like that version myself. If you like flightgear, so be it. In the meantime, how about we all quit belly aching about what an unrealeased program can or can't do. Wink

I think I strayed off topic slightly, and ranted abit, but what the heck...we're all here to listen to each others ideas after all.

So long story short you think we are being unfair, we should wait and see and then "review" it when it's out? Huh

If so I agree. But you also have to look into the past experiences of M$ Windows vista, fsx they really ignore the customers. And now they will have to suffer if they continue not to listen Sad

Most people think that flying a plane is dangerous, except pilots because they know how easy it is.
Arguing with a pilot is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a while you begin to think the pig likes it.

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Reply #47 - Aug 24^th, 2011 at 10:03am

Al_Fallujah Ex Member

I agree with Pegger.

And what makes you folk so sure that they did not listen to the community on FSX?

They have to balance what everyone wants with what is practical to program, and still have it run, even if its at 15 frames/sec. And every added feature and object takes many man hours to create. That is why the much larger public community is able to create so much more product in the same amount of time.

I have been watching people complain about the MS team for what is NOT in FSX, and read some of the ridiculous requests about what they want the software to do. Until software developers are able to add the IFM module to their products, you will NEVER get EVERYTHING.

I work in a totally unrelated software community. ALL software producers listen. But they take and jump on whats PRACTICAL, and put that in the software. Other things go to R&D for later versions, because the man hours it would take to make it all work right now in this version would cause the final price of the product to sky rocket.

« Last Edit: Aug 24^th, 2011 at 11:56am by N/A »

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Reply #48 - Aug 24^th, 2011 at 11:17am

Club508 Offline
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Quote:

I agree with Pegger.

And what makes you folk so sure that they did not listen to the community on FSX?

They have to balance what everyone wants with what is practical to program, and still have it run, even if its at 15 frames/sec. And every added feature and object takes many man hours to create. That is why the much larger public community is able to create so much more product in the same amount of time.

I have been watching people complain about the MS team for what is NOT in FSX, and read some of the ridiculous requests about what they want the software to do. As soon as software developers are able to add the IFM module to their products, you will NEVER get EVERYTHING.

I work in a totally unrelated software community. ALL software producers listen. But they take and jump on whats PRACTICAL, and put that in the software. Other things go to R&D for later versions, because the man hours it would take to make it all work right now in this version would cause the final price of the product to sky rocket.

That's part of why I left the computor game creaton community and am sticking to just sprite (computor graphics made for computer games) creaton for a small little company being run by my friends. I'm my own brand of perfectionist. I just can't think of something with nothing to build on, and I just keep wanting to make these huge computer games with everything in it, with basic computor game creation software. I just kept wanting to add more and more to them, forgetting what's practical and impractical, and I just couldn't do it. Because of that, I have probably atleast 100-150 games that I've never even come close to finishing in my mind, and only two that I've completed. i eventually just lost it with game creaton. So I decided, heck, let my friends figure out the game, just have them tell me the sprites to make and let them do the rest! Cheesy

But all in all, I can DEFINATLY verify what Al_Fallujah says by personal expierience.

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Reply #49 - Aug 24^th, 2011 at 11:25am

hyperpep111 Offline
Colonel
You'll Never See Me Coming.
93 million miles from sun

Gender:
Posts: 1328

Quote:

I agree with Pegger.

And what makes you folk so sure that they did not listen to the community on FSX?

They have to balance what everyone wants with what is practical to program, and still have it run, even if its at 15 frames/sec. And every added feature and object takes many man hours to create. That is why the much larger public community is able to create so much more product in the same amount of time.

I have been watching people complain about the MS team for what is NOT in FSX, and read some of the ridiculous requests about what they want the software to do. As soon as software developers are able to add the IFM module to their products, you will NEVER get EVERYTHING.

I work in a totally unrelated software community. ALL software producers listen. But they take and jump on whats PRACTICAL, and put that in the software. Other things go to R&D for later versions, because the man hours it would take to make it all work right now in this version would cause the final price of the product to sky rocket.

VTOL e.t.c

Most people think that flying a plane is dangerous, except pilots because they know how easy it is.
Arguing with a pilot is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a while you begin to think the pig likes it.

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Reply #50 - Aug 24^th, 2011 at 11:37am

Al_Fallujah Ex Member

hyperpep111 wrote on Aug 24^th, 2011 at 11:25am:

Quote:

I agree with Pegger.

And what makes you folk so sure that they did not listen to the community on FSX?

They have to balance what everyone wants with what is practical to program, and still have it run, even if its at 15 frames/sec. And every added feature and object takes many man hours to create. That is why the much larger public community is able to create so much more product in the same amount of time.

I have been watching people complain about the MS team for what is NOT in FSX, and read some of the ridiculous requests about what they want the software to do. As soon as software developers are able to add the IFM module to their products, you will NEVER get EVERYTHING.

I work in a totally unrelated software community. ALL software producers listen. But they take and jump on whats PRACTICAL, and put that in the software. Other things go to R&D for later versions, because the man hours it would take to make it all work right now in this version would cause the final price of the product to sky rocket.

VTOL e.t.c

Hmmm, just tested my helicopter in FSX.
Vertical take off.. Check.
Vertical Landing... Check.
(sarcasm)

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Reply #51 - Aug 24^th, 2011 at 11:39am

Strategic Retreat Offline
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pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

So much negativity...to quote as previously said.

Last time positivity reigned, we had FSX... and this time around rumors are EVEN MORE dire.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

Why would 3rd party addons not exist?

Ah, but here's the snag... WHAT KIND of 3rd party addons are we talking about here?

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

Even for your run of the mill PC games out there today that are not in the least bit designed to be open source, there exists large volumes of addons (also known as hacks or mods) that are created by those users who are so inclined and interested in doing so. And those interested in adding the mods to their games drive the ambition of the developers to make the mods and to find ways to distribute them.

Sorry, hacks and mods are mostly ILLEGAL modifications... look only to some time back, when FS9 was The Sim and the quarrel with its NO-CD hack...

Do we have to go down from the actual free market to hidden conspiracy only because some egghead decided to let its power get to its head?

I think not.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

And to assume that the lack of a scheduled 3rd party addon system for Flight is what is going to kill the franchize....really?

Really!

Of course, if you're interested in a GAME OF PLANES... then whatever.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

I think the existence of the addon community is driven by the users, not the producers.

Could make a ton of examples of how wrong you are, but I'm not going to. Whomever has eyes to see knows how wrong this allegation you made is.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

Most of us are here simply as leeches, and fewer serve as the peers (to put it in terms of file sharing, which is essentially what is going on here, but not in the illegal way).

Why, thank you. Being called a leech is just the thing I love the most.

Love the way you tried NOT to include yourself in the bodycount.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

If you all decide to turn your back on new versions of simulators (or games, however you feel you need to refer to the program), then the franchise will not fail like some predict that it will. It will decline in popularity just like FS 2004 and FSX did, and get cheaper in the stores. And some of you will in turn buy it at a cheaper price, because you would have justified that to your self somehow or another that it was ok for cheap, but not for full price. Then Microsoft will react to your boycott by counting the money from the last release, regardless of if it sold for full release price, or decreased on-the-way-out price (which still = profit by the way), and then evaluate what the selling price for FS12 will be. And the cycle will go on and on.

So we should buy even if it's crap? Not saying it will be, I said "even if", mind?

Twisted reasoning, yours.

That and... what you say MAY have a grain of truth... in a market with no alternatives. Look around. Alternatives to FS, or Flight as it may be, DO EXIST.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

Keep one thing in mind in software development....the programs are not made with longevity in mind. Programs are written to sell for profit, to a market that decides that it needs a newer copy of the program. Some are happy using older versions (who still runs office 2003?), while others like free ware (who runs Open Office?), and others like the newest version and could care less about the old expired and unsupported versions (who runs office 2010?).

So we should sacrifice OURSELVES to the high altar of OTHERS bank accounts, no matter is the software answer to our requests or not?

Moreover, we should buy REGARDLESS of our need... only because they took an afternoon off now and then to cobble together something THEY need we should buy without taking into account our requests at any levels?

Talk about twisted.

Longevity is not the matter in discussion, here. FUNCTIONALITY of Flight is.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

So quit your griping about Flight, and what it will and won't be. Those that design it know for a fact that they will sell copies, and that there will be detractors to the new program. There always are detractors.

So, what you say is: Resistance is futile. You WILL be assimilated.

I can't speak for others, but for what regards me, not until my credit card is MINE.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

And for those that threaten to jump to other programs (xplane, etc...) the developers of those other programs depend on your negativity to get your dollars.

And on what do Flight's developers depend to get the same, then?

Resignation?

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

Always about the dollars after all.

Sure... but one thing is DESERVE them, to DEMAND them is just another thing.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

And what if they sell to another development company, or suddenly decide to jump ship and change their philosophy on game design? What if the driving market force isn't all of us and our desire for free stuff, but it's 14 year old kids with short attention spans and their own credit cards? Have you ever thought that way about how a software company decides what the next game should be like?

Sure I did... that's why personally I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THAT POTENTIAL INVOLUTION.

They want my money? Better for them to deserve being paid.

pegger wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2011 at 11:53pm:

If you like FS2004....keep on keeping on. If you like FSX....see you in the virtual sky. I like that version myself. If you like flightgear, so be it. In the meantime, how about we all quit belly aching about what an unrealeased program can or can't do. Wink

Personally, I think your reasoning above bases itself heavily on willing suspension of disbelief. As I see it, we ALL have alternatives still.

Be it ever so clear, if you read ALL my previous posts you'll see I am still moderately hopeful, but after the repeating of FS2K, five years ago (only definitively WORSE, as you can use FS2K with hardware sold in 2005 with not even half the problems people have using FSX with today's hardware), I've become and remain cynical.

I am all about waiting and see what will happen, but at the same time, I am all about a "plan B" as well. Because, if you WANT something, you better DESERVE it, and not hide behind marketing logics.

If they REALLY want to involute their software to satisfy people with shoot-em-up logics, it's ONLY NATURAL they will lose the ones that do not have that mindset, no?

If they really want to become power freaks and dictate all you can do with a thing you bought, it's only natural that someone used to the freedom of customizing of the old program structure will NOT follow.

The ONLY power we have is to vote with our wallets, refusing to pay for what we do NOT agree with... and you are practically working against this last power of ours... and you SHOULD be one of us too. Get your act cleaned up. You can do whatever you want with YOUR money... and so do we.

There is no such a thing as overkill. Only unworthy targets.

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Reply #52 - Aug 24^th, 2011 at 11:58am

Club508 Offline
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I like repainting aircraft!
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Strategic Retreat wrote on Aug 24^th, 2011 at 11:39am: