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A Chinese Stealth challenge? (Read 886 times)
Jan 5th, 2011 at 11:08pm

patchz   Offline
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Quote:
The exact origin of the photographs is unclear, although they appear to have been taken by Chinese enthusiasts from the grounds of or around the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute in western China,

where the J-20 is in development. A few experts have suggested that the pictured aircraft is a mock-up, rather than a functioning prototype of a stealth fighter—so-called because it is designed to

evade detection by radar and infrared sensors.

But many more experts say they believe the pictures and the aircraft are authentic, giving the strongest indication yet that Beijing is making faster-than-expected progress in developing a rival to the

U.S. F-22—the world's only fully operational stealth fighter.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703808704576061674166905408.html?m...
 

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Reply #1 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 3:41am

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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Quote:
Chinese J-20 Stealth Fighter In Taxi Tests


Jan 3, 2011 
By Bill Sweetman
Washington

China’s first known stealth aircraft just emerged from a secret development program and was undergoing high-speed taxi tests late last week at Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute’s airfield. Said to be designated J-20, it is larger than most observers expected—pointing to long range and heavy weapon loads.

Its timing, Chengdu’s development record and official statements cast doubt on U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates’s 2009 prediction (in support of his decision to stop production of the Lockheed Martin F-22) that China would not have an operational stealth aircraft before 2020.

The debut of the J-20 was announced in a November 2009 interview on Chinese TV by Gen. He Weirong, deputy commander of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force. The general said a “fourth-generation” fighter (Chinese terminology for a stealth fighter) would be flown in 2010-11 and be operational in 2017-19.

The J-20 is a single-seat, twin-engine aircraft, bigger and heavier than the Sukhoi T-50 and the F-22. Comparison with ground-service vehicles points to an overall length of 75 ft. and a wingspan of 45 ft. or more, which would suggest a takeoff weight in the 75,000-80,000-lb. class with no external load. That in turn implies a generous internal fuel capacity. The overall length is close to that of the 1960s General Dynamics F-111, which carries 34,000 lb. of fuel.

The J-20 has a canard delta layout (like Chengdu’s J-10) with two canted, all-moving vertical stabilizers (like the T-50) and smaller canted ventral fins. The stealth body shaping is similar to that of the F-22. The flat body sides are aligned with the canted tails, the wing-body junction is clean, and there is a sharp chine line around the forward fuselage. The cant angles are greater than they are on the Lockheed Martin F-35, and the frameless canopy is similar to that of the F-22.

The engines are most likely members of the Russian Saturn AL-31F family, also used on the J-10. The production version will require yet-to-mature indigenous engines. The inlets use diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI) technology, first adopted for the F-35 but also used by Chengdu on the J-10B—the newest version of the J-10—and the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder.

The main landing gears retract into body-side bays, indicating the likely presence of F-22-style side weapon bays ahead of them. The ground clearance is higher than on the F-22, which would facilitate loading larger weapons including air-to-surface munitions. Chinese engineers at the Zhuhai air show in November disclosed that newly developed air-to-ground weapons are now required to be compatible with the J-20.

Features at the rear of the aircraft—including underwing actuator fairings, axisymmetrical engine exhausts and the ventral fins—appear less compatible with stealth, so the J-20 may not match the all-aspect stealth of the F-22. There are two possible explanations for this: Either the aircraft seen here is the first step toward an operational design, or China’s requirements do not place as much stress on rear-aspect signatures.

The major open question at this point is whether the J-20 is a true prototype, like the T-50, or a technology demonstrator, with a status similar to the YF-22 flown in 1990. That question will be answered by whether, and how many, further J-20s enter flight testing in the next 12-24 months.

Developing an effective multi-mission stealthy aircraft presents challenges beyond the airframe, because it requires a sensor suite that uses automated data fusion, emission control and low-probability-of-intercept data links to build an operational picture for the pilot without giving away the aircraft’s own location.

A rapid development program would be a challenge for China’s combat aircraft industry, which is currently busy: The J-10B, FC-17 and Shenyang’s J-11B and carrier-based J-15 are all under development. However, the progress of China’s military aviation technology has been rapid since the first flight of the J-10 in 1996, owing to the nation’s growing economy and the push by the People’s Liberation Army for a modernized military force in all domains. Before the J-10, China’s only indigenous production combat aircraft were the Shenyang J-8 and Xian JH-7, reflecting early-1960s technology from Russia and Europe.

Engine development has lagged airframe development, with reports that the Shenyang WS-10 engine, slated to replace Russian engines in the J-11B, has been slow to reach acceptable reliability and durability levels. That may not be surprising, given that high-performance engine technology is founded on specialized alloys and processes that often have no other uses. (The existence of the J-11B, essentially a “bootleg” version of the Su-27, has been a strain on relationships between the Russian and Chinese industries.)

Progress with avionics may be indicated by the advent of the J-10B, with new features that include a canted radar bulkhead (normally associated with an active, electronically scanned array antenna), an infrared search-and-track system, and housings for new electronic warfare antennas.

One question that may go unanswered for a long time concerns the degree to which cyberespionage has aided the development of the J-20. U.S. defense industry cybersecurity experts have cited 2006—close to the date when the J-20 program would have started—as the point at which they became aware of what was later named the advanced persistent threat (APT), a campaign of cyberintrusion aimed primarily at military and defense industries and characterized by sophisticated infiltration and exfiltration techniques.

Dale Meyerrose, information security vice president for the Harris Corp. and former chief information officer for the director of national intelligence, told an Aviation Week cybersecurity conference in April 2010 that the APT had been little discussed outside the classified realm, up to that point, because “the vast majority of APT attacks are believed to come from a single country.”

Between 2009 and early 2010, Lockheed Martin found that “six to eight companies” among its subcontractors “had been totally compromised—e-mails, their networks, everything,” according to Chief Information Security Officer Anne Mullins.

The way in which the J-20 was unveiled also reflects China’s use and control of information technology to support national interests. The test airfield is located in the city of Chengdu and is not secure, with many public viewing points. Photography is technically forbidden, but reports suggest that patrols have been permitting the use of cell phone cameras. From Dec. 25‑29, these images were placed on Chinese Internet discussion boards, and after an early intervention by censors—which served to draw attention to the activity—they appeared with steadily increasing quality. Substantial international attention was thereby achieved without any official disclosures. 

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awst/2011/01/03/AW_01_0...
 

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Reply #2 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 9:57am

ozzy72   Offline
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Reply #3 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 4:25pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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If the "F-22 stop production" thread was not locked this is were you could quote Mr Gates on 2 things: Russia would not have a new flying plane before 2015(proven wrong), and China would not have a plane before 2020(so far proven wrong).

Boeing did a few months of Taxi test with the 787 before it flew. And seeing how China's Air Force is not asking for a large people carrier, this should be in flight test pretty soon, if they manged to keep it secret this long.
 

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Reply #4 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 5:52pm

Craig.   Offline
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Jan 6th, 2011 at 4:25pm:
If the "F-22 stop production" thread was not locked this is were you could quote Mr Gates on 2 things: Russia would not have a new flying plane before 2015(proven wrong), and China would not have a plane before 2020(so far proven wrong).

Boeing did a few months of Taxi test with the 787 before it flew. And seeing how China's Air Force is not asking for a large people carrier, this should be in flight test pretty soon, if they manged to keep it secret this long.

To be fair, the russian equivilent is not expected for delivery till 2013/14 at the earliest, and thats been in the works for a while.
It takes a surprisingly long time for a plane to go from airbourne testbed to fully functional fighter. This one appears to be a clone of the new russian stealth fighter with a little bigger engines.
 
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Reply #5 - Jan 7th, 2011 at 1:20pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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Yeah but he said we would not see one flying until 2015 at the earliest, and was predicting much latter then that before we actually saw what we know now as the T-50.

And with this new PLAAF fighter on the Horizon, you can see why Japan was insistent on buying the F-22 to patrol their waters, and was willing to pay twice the going price to get it ASAP.

But back to the J-20, I can't wait for footage to leak out of it flying, since they say it is about the size of an F-111. It must be impressive looking when it does fly, and since they opted for 3D Thrust Vectoring over rear stealth, it must turn like the Su-35S does.
 

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Reply #6 - Jan 7th, 2011 at 1:29pm

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I'm interested in how stealthy it actually is. Having something shaped to be stealthy is all well and good, but it's the RAM coating that actually makes something stealthy, and that requires very specific and very secret formulas, not to mention the difficult manufacturing. This plane might not have RAM paint.
 

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Reply #7 - Jan 8th, 2011 at 5:23am

ozzy72   Offline
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With a number of Chinese espionage cases happening in the States in the last couple of years it wouldn't surprise me if they've "acquired" the receipes Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #8 - Jan 11th, 2011 at 8:36am

ozzy72   Offline
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Months away from a test flight... yeah right Roll Eyes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12159571
 

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Reply #9 - Jan 11th, 2011 at 10:14am

ApplePie   Offline
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Well it has been months since the taxi tests....at least on planet Mercury. Cheesy
 

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Reply #10 - Jan 12th, 2011 at 5:11pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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ozzy72 wrote on Jan 11th, 2011 at 8:36am:
Months away from a test flight... yeah right Roll Eyes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12159571

I just read and was both amazed and laughed a little. It shows once again what happens when you underestimate the determined.

This kinda reminds me of how during WWII Allied Intelligences was lacking on the Axis:
-They failed to noticed the Bismark being built until it was put to sea.
-They failed to noticed the Yamato being built until it was caught doing sea trills.
-And they had no idea Russia had the IS-3 Tank until the Allied Victory Parade in Berlin in September 1945   

But a Top Admiral has the same concerns also:
Quote:
What China's Stealth Fighter Means

By David Fulghum, Bill Sweetman, Robert Wall
Washington, Washington, London

With the surprise rollout and high-speed taxi tests of China’s newest J-20 fighter, a stealth prototype, the U.S. Navy’s top intelligence official admits that the Pentagon has erred in its estimates of the speed with which Beijing is introducing new military technology.

The aircraft’s existence was not a surprise to the intelligence community, but “one of the things that is . . . true is that we have been pretty consistent in underestimating the delivery and initial operational capability of Chinese technology weapons systems,” says Vice Admiral David J. Dorsett, deputy chief of naval operations for information dominance and director of naval intelligence. Two recent examples of misanalyses have been the J-20 fighter and the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile (AW&ST Jan. 3, p. 18). Moreover, there is evidence that China’s advances include high-performance engines and missiles that display a new level of technical maturity and performance.

“In terms of the [J-20] stealth photos, it’s not clear to me when it’s going to become operational,” Dorsett says. “Do we need to refine our assessments better? I think so.”

Other Washington-based intelligence officials say they are watching the J-20’s testing with interest. “They have done several high-speed taxis with the nosewheel off the ground,” says another veteran analyst. “They could still be working out some kinks before they try an actual first flight.”

There also are a lot of unknowns about the aircraft’s real importance.

“Operational impact is a tough call to make at this point, given that this plane, even if it flies, is not going to be a full-up fifth-gen [aircraft],” the analyst says. “In essence, this is going to be a novelty for the next decade before it starts to roll off the series production lines and gets to the line units in any numbers that would impact any of our mission planning. A lot of things can happen, good and bad, between now and then to either speed this up or severely put the brakes on things.

“As far as radar cross section goes, this is not [a Lockheed Martin] F-22, nor should we be thinking that they are going for low RCS right out of the chute,” he says. “We have to keep in mind that this is the first attempt and it’s also the very first prototype of that first attempt. There’s a lot of tweaking . . . before they get to the final version. I see too many people . . . making sweeping assessments. That has always been a mistake.”

rest of the 3 page story here.....
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw...
 

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Reply #11 - Jan 18th, 2011 at 7:52pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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Quote:
Stealthy Chinese J-20 Vulnerable


By David A. Fulghum, Bill Sweetman, Bradley Perrett, Robert Wall Washington, Washington, Beijing, London

China’s newest combat aircraft prototype, the J-20, will require an intense development program if it is going to catch up with fast-moving anti-stealth advances.

In fact, anti-stealth will bring into question all stealth designs: How much invulnerability will current low-observability techniques offer as air defense systems adopt larger and more powerful active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radars? From the early days of AESA development, a key goal was to build a radar that could detect very small objects—such as a cruise missile at a distance great enough to target and shoot it down—or a larger object like a fighter with a very low-observable treatment.

Airborne detection of stealth aircraft may already be an operational capability. In a series of tests at Edwards AFB, Calif., in 2009, Lockheed Martin’s CATbird avionics testbed—a Boeing 737 that carries the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s entire avionics system—engaged a mixed force of F-22s and Boeing F-15s and was able to locate and jam F-22 radars, according to researchers. Raytheon’s family of X-band airborne AESA radar—in particular, those on upgraded F-15Cs stationed in Okinawa—can detect small, low-signature cruise missiles.

Moreover, Northrop Grumman’s lower-frequency, L-band AESA radar on Australia’s Wedgetail airborne early warning and control aircraft is larger and potentially more capable of detecting stealth aircraft at longer ranges.

Lockheed Martin also hinted at a JSF anti-stealth capability in 2009 in a reference to combat with sophisticated, foreign aircraft. “The F-35’s avionics include onboard sensors that will enable pilots to strike fixed or moving ground targets in high-threat environments, day or night, in any weather, while simultaneously targeting and eliminating advanced airborne threats,” said Dan Crowley, then-executive vice president and F-35 program general manager.

Better images emerging from China point clearly to the J-20’s use of stealth technology, but major uncertainties and questions remain unresolved.

The overall shape resembles that of the F-35 and F-22, which have a single “chine line” uniting the forebody, upper inlet lips, and wing and canard edges with a curved surface above that line and flat, canted body surfaces below it. The wing and canard edges are aligned: The wing and canard leading edges are parallel and the trailing edge of each canard is aligned with the opposite wing’s trailing edge. The same basic philosophy also has been adopted in British, Swedish and Japanese studies for stealth fighters.

The aim in all cases is to endow a practical, agile fighter configuration with a “bow-tie” radar signature, with the smallest signature around the nose and the greatest (still much lower than that of a conventional aircraft with curved or vertical-slab sides) to the side. The fighter’s mission planning system, using a database of known radar locations, then derives a “blue line” track that weaves between radars and avoids exposing the side-on signature to those radars more than transiently.

The “diverterless” supersonic inlet avoids a signature problem caused by a conventional boundary layer diverter plate. For example, the F-22 has a conventional inlet, which is likely to require extensive radar absorbent material (RAM) treatment.

The biggest uncertainty about the Chinese design concerns the engine exhausts, which as seen on the prototype are likely to cause a radar cross-section (RCS) peak from the rear aspect. One possibility is that a stealthier two-dimensional nozzle will be integrated later in the program; however, the nozzles on the current aircraft show some signs of RCS-reducing sawtooth treatment, suggesting that the People’s Liberation Army has accepted a rear-aspect RCS penalty rather than the much greater weight and complexity of 2D nozzles.

Other features are less clear. Stealth development has been dogged by detail-design challenges. All the antennas on the aircraft have to be flush with the skin and covered with surfaces that retain stealth properties while being transparent in a specific frequency. Maintainability becomes a complex tradeoff: Some systems requiring frequent attention will be accessed via landing gear and weapon bays, and others by latched and actuated doors that can open and close without affecting RCS—but the latter involves a weight penalty.

Perhaps the toughest hurdle is managing radio-frequency surface currents over the skin. Early stealth designs used heavy, maintenance-intensive RAM. The F-22 introduced a much lighter surface treatment, but it has proven unexpectedly difficult to maintain, causing corrosion issues. Lockheed Martin now asserts that the F-35 will be robust and affordable to maintain in service, with a combination of a high-toughness, sprayed-on topcoat and a conductive layer cured into composite skin panels.

The Chengdu J-20 design has struck many analysts and observers as familiar and somewhat different from the F-22, F-35 or Sukhoi T-50.

“The J-20 is reminiscent of the Russian MiG-1.42 both in terms of planform and also with regard to the rear fuselage configuration,” says Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace at London’s International Institute for Strategic Studies. “The most obvious difference is the greater forward fuselage shaping as the basis for low-observable characteristics, along with the different engine intake configuration. The MiG program was canceled by the Russian government around 1997,” he notes. However, the similarity to the MiG concept may suggest some collusion with the Russian aviation industry.

The J-20 made its first flight shortly before 1 p.m. Beijing time on Jan. 11. The flight ended three weeks of anticipation that began in late December when the new design started taxi tests.

The discussion about the program will now shift to the aircraft’s mission (fighter or, more likely, long-range strike), sensors (strike missions would require a high-resolution, long-range radar) and communications (which would demand high-speed data links and sophisticated integration).

Conventional radars have only one-half to one-third of the range of an AESA radar. Moreover, the movement of a conventional, mechanically scanned radar antenna provides a tell-tale glint of radio-frequency reflections to enemy aircraft with advanced radars. Such reflections undercut the effectiveness of a stealth airframe. China is known to be pursuing newer radar technology.

“It’s too early to tell the true status of the Chinese AESA program,” says a Washington-based intelligence official. “We’ve seen lots of press and air show information on the program, but that doesn’t automatically translate into a robust development or give us an accurate look at where [China] is as far as fielding one anytime soon.

“Like the [high-performance] engine, it’ll be a challenge to take the step from older radars to one designed for a fifth-generation fighter,” he says. “Again, though, the J-20 is just the first or second—depending on whom you believe—prototype in a very long development program.”

If the Chinese conduct a few months of flight tests and there are no more aircraft involved in the program, this might indicate that the J-20 is a proof-of-concept or technical demonstrator. If there are several aircraft eventually, a prototype program would be a more likely conclusion.

The flight occurred during a visit to China by U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who says Chinese President Hu Jintao confirmed the event to him in talks. However, Gates still believes the U.S. will retain a preponderance of stealth fighters through 2025. 

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awst/2011/01/17/AW_01_1...


It seems to me, due to the West Lack of Intel on the East is frustrating annalist, so they came up with something to reassure them that there is no real threat to the EF2000, F-22 or F-35.

Everything they say makes sense, but it is funny how this information was thrown together real fast and real detailed all of sudden, with nothing to prove 100% with out a shadow of a dought that this is in fact the complete truth.
 

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Reply #12 - Jan 25th, 2011 at 10:23am

ozzy72   Offline
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You couldn't make it up, not even Craig Thomas could have come up with this as a storyline!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12266973
 

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Reply #13 - Jan 26th, 2011 at 5:37am

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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That's funny that that happened, for any other plane downed behind enemy lines, it is blown up as soon as possible be friendly forces, but for some reason they chose not to blow up the F-117A that day....kinda makes you wonder?

But all this talk of how RAM is hard to make, just recently I was watching the History Channel, and they had story about the flying wing, and stealth on, and it turns out that the German"s were the first to have a crude RAM on top of their flying wing back in 1942, called the H-O9, then the H-0229 built out of wood, and coated with the first ram.

excerpt from the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPU8dxUhkus
*this video has the part about the RAM cut out**

 

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