Simviation Forum - Not nice reading, we've seen this before

Dec 21^st, 2010 at 7:57pm

C Offline
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Sadly the preliminary report on the Elmendorf C-17 crash has been released. In some ways it's a relief that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft, but sadly, it appears the lessons learned after Bud Holland was allowed to crash his B-52, haven't been taken aboard by everyone.

Quote:

The board president found clear and convincing evidence that the cause of the mishap was pilot error. The pilot violated regulatory provisions and multiple flight manual procedures, placing the aircraft outside established flight parameters at an attitude and altitude where recovery was not possible. Furthermore, the copilot and safety observer did not realize the developing dangerous situation and failed to make appropriate inputs. In addition to multiple procedural errors, the board president found sufficient evidence that the crew on the flight deck ignored cautions and warnings and failed to respond to various challenge and reply items. The board also found channelized attention, overconfidence, expectancy, misplaced motivation, procedural guidance, and program oversight substantially contributed to the mishap.

Quote:

“Because [Freyholtz] was an accomplished aviator, leadership allowed him to operate independently with little or no oversight,” the report said. “As a result, checks and balances within the program were insufficient.”

Really feel for the poor Loadmaster. Helpless in all respects sat down the back.

http://www.pacaf.af.mil/library/aibreports/index.asp

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Reply #1 - Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 7:07am

DaveSims Offline
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Clear Lake, Iowa

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I can see the AF no longer allowing heavies to do airshow performances. There really is no need to hot dog in a C-17 or B-52. In both of these cases, the pilots must have really wanted to be fighter pilots but were selected for heavy iron instead.

Dave

www.flymcw.com

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Reply #2 - Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 10:04am

RitterKreuz Offline
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Anyone seen the video?

he rolls down the runway to Vr, rotates and immediately pitches up to about 50 degrees pitch attitude damn near tries to take the thing vertical.

then proceeds to do some severely steep S-turns Left and then right.

In one of the right turns he gets too steep and any roll out attempt is too little too late.

i cant see a good reason to maneuver such an airplane in such a way when there is not enemy fire involved.

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Reply #3 - Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 1:37pm

specter177 Offline
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RitterKreuz wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 10:04am:

Anyone seen the video?

he rolls down the runway to Vr, rotates and immediately pitches up to about 50 degrees pitch attitude damn near tries to take the thing vertical.

then proceeds to do some severely steep S-turns Left and then right.

In one of the right turns he gets too steep and any roll out attempt is too little too late.

i cant see a good reason to maneuver such an airplane in such a way when there is not enemy fire involved.

If training isn't realistic, then when there is enemy fire involved, crew won't know how to react. There is of course risk involved, but the one or two mishaps a year is outweighed by the positive training that saves lives in combat operations. You have to know the aircraft's limits, and the only way to do that is to push it to those limits. When you do that in controlled conditions, usually nothing bad happens. This was one of the cases when the pilot just made a mistake, and it cost him and his crew. It should not change SOP, and if it does, then the Air Force will be worse off for it.

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Reply #4 - Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 3:09pm

C Offline
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specter177 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 1:37pm:

If training isn't realistic, then when there is enemy fire involved, crew won't know how to react. There is of course risk involved, but the one or two mishaps a year is outweighed by the positive training that saves lives in combat operations. You have to know the aircraft's limits, and the only way to do that is to push it to those limits. When you do that in controlled conditions, usually nothing bad happens. This was one of the cases when the pilot just made a mistake, and it cost him and his crew. It should not change SOP, and if it does, then the Air Force will be worse off for it.

Aircraft have published limitations for a reason - particularly big ones, as they have a tendency to not recover too well.

The report stated, in the very short flight that pilot error was "committed" (their word, not mine) by effectively breaking every limitation there was for the 3 manoeuvres he performed. His climb was dangerous. His turns were dangerous, in both AoB and technique. I doubt the SOP will change - because he certainly wasn't bothering with it!

As for linking his performance to knowing how to push the boundaries in combat ops, sorry, that just ain't the way it works. You learn to operate an aircraft to, and within, its limits. Beyond that is negligent and dangerous. Imagine if he'd done it with 100 troops sat down the back.

« Last Edit: Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 6:00pm by C »

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Reply #5 - Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 5:59pm

DaveSims Offline
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Clear Lake, Iowa

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specter177 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 1:37pm:

RitterKreuz wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 10:04am:

Anyone seen the video?

he rolls down the runway to Vr, rotates and immediately pitches up to about 50 degrees pitch attitude damn near tries to take the thing vertical.

then proceeds to do some severely steep S-turns Left and then right.

In one of the right turns he gets too steep and any roll out attempt is too little too late.

i cant see a good reason to maneuver such an airplane in such a way when there is not enemy fire involved.

If training isn't realistic, then when there is enemy fire involved, crew won't know how to react. There is of course risk involved, but the one or two mishaps a year is outweighed by the positive training that saves lives in combat operations. You have to know the aircraft's limits, and the only way to do that is to push it to those limits. When you do that in controlled conditions, usually nothing bad happens. This was one of the cases when the pilot just made a mistake, and it cost him and his crew. It should not change SOP, and if it does, then the Air Force will be worse off for it.

This was not combat training, they were preparing for an airshow, same situation that lead up to the famous B-52 crash. These were not controlled manuevers, they were showboating. You can tell in the video he is going from one control stop to the other.

Dave

www.flymcw.com

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Reply #6 - Dec 24^th, 2010 at 10:20am

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
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specter177 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 1:37pm:

RitterKreuz wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 10:04am:

Anyone seen the video?

he rolls down the runway to Vr, rotates and immediately pitches up to about 50 degrees pitch attitude damn near tries to take the thing vertical.

then proceeds to do some severely steep S-turns Left and then right.

In one of the right turns he gets too steep and any roll out attempt is too little too late.

i cant see a good reason to maneuver such an airplane in such a way when there is not enemy fire involved.

If training isn't realistic, then when there is enemy fire involved, crew won't know how to react. There is of course risk involved, but the one or two mishaps a year is outweighed by the positive training that saves lives in combat operations. You have to know the aircraft's limits, and the only way to do that is to push it to those limits. When you do that in controlled conditions, usually nothing bad happens. This was one of the cases when the pilot just made a mistake, and it cost him and his crew. It should not change SOP, and if it does, then the Air Force will be worse off for it.

I have flown into and out of Kandahar Airport in Afghanistan in Jan 2002, in a C-17 a few months after we originally took the airport, and there was gun fire, flares and RPG's flying back and forth just a few hundred yards from the perimeter of the Air Field, and we did not take off like that, nor did we bank like that while leaving the area, and that was a combat situation!

So every thing you said make no sense at all. The video is in the video section for you to see.

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