Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
AC doesn't stay on course with AP (Read 692 times)
Oct 10th, 2010 at 10:21pm

jgf   Offline
Colonel
village idiot
Columbus OH

Posts: 91
*****
 
I'm sure there is a simple answer to this (probably adjusting the nut behind the joystick);  but having read the tutorials to no avail, here I am.  For years I've enjoyed mostly low level VFR flights but recently tried some much longer trips and find the aircraft does not stay on course when left on AP.   

For example, on a recent flight from London to Tokyo I did everything manually for a couple of hours, over eastern Europe I set the course on the AP and went to bed;  the next morning, while the AP and GPS said I was still on course, in reality I was over 300nm north of Tokyo.  Flight analysis showed I had flown in a large arc rather than a straight line.

This is not endemic to one AC or one geographic area, I assume this has always occurred but wasn't particularly noticeable due to the comparatively short flights I normally take.  Since I have neither the time nor the inclination to sit at my computer for more than a couple of hours, how do I keep the aircraft on course during those long flights? 

 
IP Logged
 
Reply #1 - Oct 10th, 2010 at 10:30pm

Webb   Offline
Colonel
Go 'Noles!
Morningwood Golf Resort

Posts: 1068
*****
 
Wind drift?

For a flight of that distance I'd fly a direct GPS course instead of a directional course.
 

A bad day at golf is better than a good day at work.

...

Jim
IP Logged
 
Reply #2 - Oct 11th, 2010 at 8:20am

Nav   Offline
Colonel

Posts: 717
*****
 
So much to suggest, jgf.......

First thing is, winds change, as Webb indicates. Beyond that. air pressure changes (meaning that height readings become inaccurate) and compasses deviate (leading to you getting off course). I'm frankly surprised that, using your 'method,' you weren't up to 1,000 nms. off course, instead of just 300..... Smiley

As Webb says, the simple way to stay on course is to switch from 'NAV' to "GPS' on the autopilot. That way the course will stay right. But at the expense of the whole flight being as boring as watching paint dry.........

The way to deal with air pressure and compass variations is to press 'B' (for 'barometric') and 'D' (for
'deviation') from time to time. But I'm afraid that that doesn't do much to alleviate the boredom.

My own solution is not to bother with marathon airliner longhaul trips and to make shorter (1,000nm.-2,000nm.) trips in lighter aircraft. And, for good measure, mostly to make 'round-world' trips in them.

Beyond that, I leave 'GPS Hold' alone as much as I can and use 'traditional' VOR-to-VOR navigation as much as possible. VORs usually have a 200-mile range, so it's necessary (and also fun) to plan your trips as far as possible in 'under-400nm. 'legs' as far as you can.

Finally (in my opinion, and I know many will consider it heresy!) to Hell with not using 'accelerated time' on occasion! Smiley I tend to concentrate on takeoffs, climbouts, course changes, patches of bad weather, approaches, landings, etc. - and don't hesitate to use say 4X acceleration on the long boring bits.

At least I 'see' the whole flight that way - and don't face the risk of waking up smelling smoke and realising that leaving the 'puter on has set the house on fire...... Smiley

Beyond that, I find the whole process of planning and carrying out round-world flights in under-2,000nm. legs in smaller (and therefore basically-unsuitable) aeroplanes endlessly satisfying and absorbing; especially using different dates and 'real weather,' and having to cope with all sorts of airfields, including plenty of under-equipped ones.

Don't really have to say much more because, years back, I wrote that approach to FS up in a 'tutorial' which Simviation were kind enough to put on their site. It provides a lot of detail on VOR-to-VOR navigation, route planning, fuel conservation etc. Click on "FS2004 Round The World in A Prop" (sixth one down) if you're interested:-

http://simviation.com/1/browse-Adventures-128-2

PS - about "Flight analysis showed I had flown in a large arc rather than a straight line', you have to blame a guy named Mercator for that. Way back, he devised the "Mercator Projection' - which shows a flat world on a rectangular map. In fact, of course, it's a sphere - so that the 'true route' from A to B follows a curve, not a straight line, on Mercator's map. The navigators' term for that is the 'Great Circle Route.'

With the result that, among other things, on his map, flying the shortest route round the world from Australia to Australia, you'll find yourself flying over Northern Canada....... 


« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2010 at 3:06am by Nav »  
IP Logged
 
Reply #3 - Oct 11th, 2010 at 10:16pm

jgf   Offline
Colonel
village idiot
Columbus OH

Posts: 91
*****
 
Thanks for the input.  I enjoy VOR-VOR flying, but rarely use time acceleration since it seems to affect fuel consumption.  Have been branded a heretic for adding autopilots to aircraft that never had them ...but the real aircraft had a copilot (and I use simplistic APs with hold functions only).  Also use cockpit tips so am prompted to reset the altimeter and heading indicator. 

I'll try the GPS hold next time (had used it before, but on short flights there's little difference between GPS and NAV);  doesn't matter if the flight is dull as an evening with network TV, I'll be off doing something else.   I know I could save and resume the flight, but then the flight analysis is lost.  Still prefer regional airliners and GA aircraft, but wanted some flights suitable for those new 747s, A380s, even a C-5 and B-52 (though I'm not trying NY to Paris in a zeppelin again ...now that's boring).

My marathon flight isn't around the world, but is over 95000nm cumulative straight line distances;  it visits the capital of each sovereign nation in a path that doesn't backtrack or cross itself.  Individual legs vary from 40nm to 2200nm and the entire flight must be done in the same aircraft. 

For more casual flying I have a tour of the capitals of the 48 contiguous US states;  distances range from 40nm to 450nm in a ragged circle around the country.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #4 - Oct 11th, 2010 at 10:33pm

turbofire   Offline
Colonel
Please don't link images!
Central - USA

Gender: male
Posts: 47
*****
 
I agree with what Nav had to offer.   I have added autopilot to most everything, except the small aircraft.  Although, having said that, I can remember a time when I didn't use autopilot at all, ever.  Of course, I had lots of problems and spent what seemed like long hours pouring over maps, etc.  Using autopilot and GPS for long flights is all I do anymore.  There are times when I notice that the AC isn't tracking exactly on the path, and there are times when coming in for a landing it is best to simply turn off autopilot altogether.  LOL
 

Turbo
 
Fire 
IP Logged
 
Reply #5 - Oct 12th, 2010 at 4:41am

Fozzer   Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.

Posts: 24861
*****
 
turbofire wrote on Oct 11th, 2010 at 10:33pm:
I agree with what Nav had to offer.   I have added autopilot to most everything, except the small aircraft.  Although, having said that, I can remember a time when I didn't use autopilot at all, ever.  Of course, I had lots of problems and spent what seemed like long hours pouring over maps, etc.  Using autopilot and GPS for long flights is all I do anymore.  There are times when I notice that the AC isn't tracking exactly on the path, and there are times when coming in for a landing it is best to simply turn off autopilot altogether.  LOL


..I cheat, and even add a full Bendix-King Radio Stack to all my aircraft*..even the little baby ones (C150, etc,)...and that includes Autopilot and accompanying Gauges!... Wink...!

I note that my flight plans generated in FS Navigator, that my Aircraft always stay on course for the journey, automatically checking the next Way-point; (Radio Beacon; VOR, NDB signal) and correcting the course as necessary.

...and my tip is to always turn the Autopilot OFF, well before landing, and fly the remaining distance to ground manually, constantly checking for any deviation in speed, height, or direction... Smiley.....
...I think that's what real Pilots do, anyway... Roll Eyes...!

Radio Navigation is Fun....and leaves time to do "other things", en route!... Kiss... Grin...!

Paul...G-BPLF...FS 2004...FS Nav... Cool...!

* even my Douglas; DC3's, DC4's, etc... Shocked... Grin...!
 

Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
IP Logged
 
Reply #6 - Oct 12th, 2010 at 4:35pm

jgf   Offline
Colonel
village idiot
Columbus OH

Posts: 91
*****
 
I quickly learned the AP is thoroughly inept at landing most of the time, usually bringing me down a few hundred yards short of the runway (no big deal since it's necessary to keep collision detection disabled, but not very realistic).  My procedure now, with larger aircraft, is to let it fly the approach til I have the first doubts, then take over and land manually.  In smaller aircraft I only use the AP for straight and level legs of about 15min or more.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #7 - Oct 12th, 2010 at 5:00pm

Fozzer   Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.

Posts: 24861
*****
 
jgf wrote on Oct 12th, 2010 at 4:35pm:
I quickly learned the AP is thoroughly inept at landing most of the time, usually bringing me down a few hundred yards short of the runway (no big deal since it's necessary to keep collision detection disabled, but not very realistic).  My procedure now, with larger aircraft, is to let it fly the approach til I have the first doubts, then take over and land manually.  In smaller aircraft I only use the AP for straight and level legs of about 15min or more.


Southern California is alive with VOR's and NDB's, and its fun to generate a flight plan, and tune the radio frequencies to each station in advance, and adjust the heading bug to suit, whilst adjusting the VOR 1 Gauge to line up, and keeping an eye on the NDB Gauge's little yellow arrow!

A full Autopilot Flight Plan will do it for you automatically!

Paul...G-BPLF..FS 2004...FS Navigator... Cool...!

Kiss my Radios... Grin...!
 

Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
IP Logged
 
Reply #8 - Oct 13th, 2010 at 11:51pm

Nav   Offline
Colonel

Posts: 717
*****
 
jgf, it's not the AP's job to land you. Its job (when set to the instrument landing system at a given airport) is to line you up with the runway and take you down the glidepath until you're close; then it's up to you to switch it off and finish off the landing manually. Beyond that, it's up to you to make sure that the power is right (not too much, not too little) to maintain landing speed. Too little power and you certainly will 'sink into the ground' - too much and you'll overshoot.

A lot of the fun of FS, to my mind, is working to perfect your procedures and techniques as much as you can so as to avoid those 'doubts' you mention as far as possible.

Here's how you do that:-

http://205.252.250.26/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=COF;action=display;num=1111322...

For airports without ILS (except the very smallest ones) the GPS will more or less line you up with your chosen runway (read up under 'GPS' in the Learning Centre for the procedure, it's a bit complicated). However, it will not handle the glideslope for you, and it won't always get the line of the runway exactly right. 
« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2010 at 6:53am by Nav »  
IP Logged
 
Reply #9 - Oct 15th, 2010 at 2:57pm

turbofire   Offline
Colonel
Please don't link images!
Central - USA

Gender: male
Posts: 47
*****
 
Fozzer wrote on Oct 12th, 2010 at 4:41am:
turbofire wrote on Oct 11th, 2010 at 10:33pm:
I agree with what Nav had to offer.   I have added autopilot to most everything, except the small aircraft.  Although, having said that, I can remember a time when I didn't use autopilot at all, ever.  Of course, I had lots of problems and spent what seemed like long hours pouring over maps, etc.  Using autopilot and GPS for long flights is all I do anymore.  There are times when I notice that the AC isn't tracking exactly on the path, and there are times when coming in for a landing it is best to simply turn off autopilot altogether.  LOL


..I cheat, and even add a full Bendix-King Radio Stack to all my aircraft*..even the little baby ones (C150, etc,)...and that includes Autopilot and accompanying Gauges!... Wink...!

I note that my flight plans generated in FS Navigator, that my Aircraft always stay on course for the journey, automatically checking the next Way-point; (Radio Beacon; VOR, NDB signal) and correcting the course as necessary.

...and my tip is to always turn the Autopilot OFF, well before landing, and fly the remaining distance to ground manually, constantly checking for any deviation in speed, height, or direction... Smiley.....
...I think that's what real Pilots do, anyway... Roll Eyes...!

Radio Navigation is Fun....and leaves time to do "other things", en route!... Kiss... Grin...!

Paul...G-BPLF...FS 2004...FS Nav... Cool...!

* even my Douglas; DC3's, DC4's, etc... Shocked... Grin...!



That is geat.  As some have noticed with some past posts, I tend add a full panel, especially for multi-engine aircraft.  My panels are usually designed to specific to the aircraft (i.e., Boeing 797).  I believe the ignitiion switches should number the same as the number of engines.  Although, FS is configured for four engines max.  We do find ways to get around these little problems tho.  What I find frustrating is to download a three or four engine aircraft and find a single or only two ignition switches.  I hate downloading an aircraft to find NO ignition switches at all or with the switches available, no way to turn off the engines.  FS9 allows one to use such a wide array of switches, I cannot understand why someone would go to all the trouble to design a model with good dynamics and then not include a way to start it up!  LOL
 

Turbo
 
Fire 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print