Simviation Forum - Question of Etiquette for flight instructors

Sep 20^th, 2010 at 11:52pm

RitterKreuz Offline
Colonel
Texas

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Posts: 1253

If there are any other active flight instructors on here (Brett) I have a question of etiquette for you.

Over the years i have conducted Biennial Flight Reviews for numerous pilots of various skill levels.

My average BFR consists of about 1 hour of ground instruction over the minimum required stuff (Part 61 / 91, stall spin awareness etc etc) the flight portion consiss of at least 3 takeoffs and landings, one without flaps with a slip. In flight we do steep turns, slow flight, power on and off stalls, engine out procedures, VOR tracking and basic pilotage to a nearby airport.

Most of the pilots i conduct BFRs for have a fair amount of recent experience... some of them only fly a couple of hours per month... others fly hundreds of hours per year.

I was contacted recently by a pilot who had not flown in about 15 years who wants want to get a "quick BFR done one day this week" and get current.

his motivation for getting back into aviation after such a long hiatus is so that he can fly to one of the busiest fly-in / air show events in the region.

i admit to my discomfort in putting my name into the logbook of an individual who has been out of the aviation game for so long... especially when they appear to be in a hurry to get it done and especially when they want to fly PIC into a very busy and congested air-show fly in environment.

I have brought a few pilots back from the dead so to speak. Friends of mine who have been out of aviation for 20 years. But i made it very clear to them that i recommend about 1 hour for every 2 years they were out of the game.

this most recent guy insists that it is something he can knock out in about an hour... even with 15 years of rust. Undecided

question of etiquette is: how do i tell this guy that im not interested in conducting his BFR and that he should find himself some other CFI who is willing to affix his name to the logbook certifying this man's proficiency??

the last thing i want is for him to fly into this congested airspace and bend metal or break a regulation etc and the feds come asking me about it.

which begs another question - i freely admit after nearly 10 years of flight instructing that dont know the answer to - what liability if any does a flight instructor face if he conducts a BFR for an individual and days or weeks later the individual royally screws the pooch by busting a regulation, entering a temporary flight restriction, breaking an airplane or someone's private property or worse injuring or killing someone?

not that i necessarily imagine this guy will do those things, but he is in a hurry as this fly-in date is looming, and IMHO we have a lot of work to do to get him up to snuff and it sounds like more work than im willing to take time out of my schedule to do.

what would you do?

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Reply #1 - Sep 21^st, 2010 at 7:31am

Brett_Henderson Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

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I'm going to answer this on reflex.. not gonna quote regs.. just use real experience, and reference similar discussions/experiences, from memory... and disclaim that I haven't been an active instructor for over two years..

The thing that bothered me from day-one, was not the legal liabilities, but just my conscious. Legally, it's off your plate when the examiner passes a pilot.. but how can a person not worry about his 60-hour student climbing into an airplane with passengers, and wandering off on long, X-country trips ? The young, time-building instructors on their way to airline jobs have the luxury of youth-bourne naivete'.. but us older guys are more pragmatic. I was actually relieved when the club decided that there wasn't enough flying activity to justify keeping me on the commercial policy.

Back when I first started flying, we had a family friend who was a retired airline captain... who made it crystal clear that my license was a license to continue learning on my own.. and that I would NOT take anyone he knew up, until I passed the 250 hour mark... most noteworthy, my own brother. And it's funny when you look back.. as you pass the 500, and 1000 hour marks.. you realize it was borderline fool-hardy to take 'civilians' up with you, on anything but short, perfect-VFR flights, even at 250 hours. And referencing fly-ins.. I was a very experienced, instrument pilot when I flew in/out of Oshkosh the first time.. and I was in over my head (IMHO).

ANYway.. if you were working out of our club (and he planned on taking one of our airplanes).. you'd have a built-in defense. At 15 years idle, he'd need 10 hours of dual to qualify as a member/renter... and an instrument rating if he was taking an airplane on an over-night trip. So, my first question is: who's gonna rent him an airplane on just a BFR after 15 years off ?

If he already has that worked out.. just tell him that you have a personal policy for a minimum of one hour of dual, per idle year when it comes to BFRs and currency. If he's not happy with that, he's not someone you need to worry about, because he's almost reckless. Just ask him..'If you owned an airplane, would you want a complete stranger flying it solo; with only a recent, minimal BFR in his logbook over the last 15 years ?'

Quote:

which begs another question - i freely admit after nearly 10 years of flight instructing that dont know the answer to - what liability if any does a flight instructor face if he conducts a BFR for an individual and days or weeks later the individual royally screws the pooch by busting a regulation, entering a temporary flight restriction, breaking an airplane or someone's private property or worse injuring or killing someone?

You have no idea, because it's not a cut-n-dry thing.. never has been. It's like an FAA, loose-end left to the monstrous discrepancy pilots have for self-policing. Legally, you have no liability, and don't have the authority to ground him, either. A BFR isn't really a pass/fail thing. But you have every right (and responsibility), to not put your signature in his logbook, until you feel he's a competent/current pilot.

As for etiquette ? He's breeched it completely, by asking you to be part of his nonsensical plan; so you're off the hook there, too. So.. if you truly don't have the time to squeeze in a realistic set of training sessions, just tell him as much. If you could make time for this, and he's willing to commit to some genuine instruction.. it would be a good thing, for both of you.

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Reply #2 - Sep 21^st, 2010 at 8:06am

Brett_Henderson Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

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AND.... while were talking about this stuff...

I didn't want to make a formal announcement; like start a thread.. but I do want members to know (and it's part of the personal, coping process), that I won't be renewing my medical certificate that expires at the end of this month.

It's like the perfect storm of circumstances I knew were brewing. In this economy, it's hard to justify spending what amounts to a decent mortgage payment every month, just to stay current. And unless things turn around, I see big trouble for GA; not only economically.. but in a world where we're gonna be told what kinda light-bulbs to use.. how big a TV we can own, and eventually how much fuel we can use, even just for automobiles.. I don't see luxury activities like common guys flying airplanes, being able to maintain a healthy environment.

On top of that, without going into detail.. I've got some health-issues .. nothing serious beyond blood-pressure and depth-perception; that will just be more, expensive hoops to jump through.

If, at some point in the future, things improve.. I might reconsider. Mean-time, I don't want to risk loosing my light-sport priviledges (or go broke paying for doctors and lawyers, on TOP of normal flying expenses...lol).

Thanks for this opening to vent a bit

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Reply #3 - Sep 21^st, 2010 at 8:19am

RitterKreuz Offline
Colonel
Texas

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Posts: 1253

Thanks for sharing Brett.

I'll add that he has purchased an airplane in the last 20 or 30 days and received 2 or 3 hours of what he calls "dual instruction" from what has turned out to be a non CFI friend of his.

Roll Eyes

sorry about your troubles.

I have been considering hanging my headset up for a while too Cry

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Reply #4 - Sep 21^st, 2010 at 9:18am

Brett_Henderson Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

Gender:
Posts: 3593

HA ! .. You're off the hook even moreso. As an owner, it's now in the hands of his insurance company Cool

Thanks for the concern, but it's all good... and is even a weight off my shoulders. FORCING yourself to go fly every week because you MIGHT be carrying a passenger, has become more of a job, than a 'hobby'.

I've long-since stopped enjoying sitting in a light-single cockpit for hours while traveling.. and no-longer get $130/hour worth of fun out of just poking holes in the sky. The rest of the stuff I listed is as much an excuse to stop, as it is a reason.

Upside is, that I can devote time/money into a completely immersive sim-pit now

I'm just glad I got to meet, and fly with several forum members (two from SimV)

Who knows what the future holds Cool

**Side note: Do your own research and vote in favor of GA this November**

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Reply #5 - Sep 21^st, 2010 at 12:34pm

RitterKreuz Offline
Colonel
Texas

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Posts: 1253

Brett_Henderson wrote on Sep 21^st, 2010 at 9:18am:

**Side note: Do your own research and vote in favor of GA this November**[/size]

dont worry Cool

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Reply #6 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 6:49pm

C Offline
Colonel
Earth

Posts: 13144

RitterKreuz wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 11:52pm:

i admit to my discomfort in putting my name into the logbook of an individual who has been out of the aviation game for so long... especially when they appear to be in a hurry to get it done and especially when they want to fly PIC into a very busy and congested air-show fly in environment.

question of etiquette is: how do i tell this guy that im not interested in conducting his BFR and that he should find himself some other CFI who is willing to affix his name to the logbook certifying this man's proficiency??

From a non (C)FI point of view, I think you just have to be straight up - and explain to him exactly why you're unwilling to conduct such a check without any formal refresher instruction beforehand.

At the end of the day, he's the one who's got to understand, that should the worst happen and he's involved in a incident at any time before his next bi-annual check, the person who's signed the logbook could find themselves in very hot water.

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Reply #7 - Sep 25^th, 2010 at 12:30am

ViperPilot Offline
Colonel
KLMO Denver, CO USA

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Posts: 211

I'm not a RW pilot, but I've found this thread very interesting...

RitterKreuz wrote on Sep 21^st, 2010 at 8:19am:

... I'll add that he has purchased an airplane in the last 20 or 30 days and received 2 or 3 hours of what he calls "dual instruction" from what has turned out to be a non CFI friend of his...

The scenario reminds me of the guy who hasn't played golf in 15 years, but his company is sending him to Pebble Beach in six weeks to schmooze a big prospective client on a golf/ business trip, so he has six weeks to try and re-learn a sport that is one of the hardest to begin with.

"Please... all I need is just enough to get past the test & the checkride..." Grin

Sounds like the cons outweigh the pros on this one.

Just my 2¢ worth...

Alan

[
"I created the Little Black Book to keep myself from getting killed..."
-- Captain Elrey Borge Jeppesen

P4 3.0 SINGLE CORE, 2GB Corsair RAM, ATI Radeon 4650 1GB, OCZ 600w PSU, Samsung 160GB HD XP SP3

Proud User of: FS8 FS9 CFS CFS2 IL2

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Reply #8 - Sep 25^th, 2010 at 3:46am

RitterKreuz Offline
Colonel
Texas

Gender:
Posts: 1253

Thanks for the input.

he was very specific about the hand full of dates he was available... I was simply unavailable any of those dates. Wink

I really enjoy bringing pilots back on line after such a long hiatus... but i also think it shouldn't be rushed for obvious reasons.

I recall working for the airline and having been displaced from an entire month of flying because lucky me - i was paired up with an IOE instructor captain. New guy needed IOE and took my seat, the schedulers had no open assignments so i got sent home with pay for four weeks in a row! Shocked

talk about one hell of a vacation... i was getting my money for nothing and my chicks for free. Cool

i came back after that 30ish days off and i have to admit... it took me most of the first full day of flying to get back into the groove of things.

i couldnt imagine what 10 - 15 years would do.

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Reply #9 - Oct 6^th, 2010 at 4:21pm

Mr._Ryan Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

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Brett_Henderson wrote on Sep 21^st, 2010 at 8:06am:

but in a world where we're gonna be told what kinda light-bulbs to use.. how big a TV we can own, and eventually how much fuel we can use, even just for automobiles..

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Reply #10 - Oct 6^th, 2010 at 4:25pm

Mr._Ryan Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 141

C wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 6:49pm:

RitterKreuz wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 11:52pm:

i admit to my discomfort in putting my name into the logbook of an individual who has been out of the aviation game for so long... especially when they appear to be in a hurry to get it done and especially when they want to fly PIC into a very busy and congested air-show fly in environment.

question of etiquette is: how do i tell this guy that im not interested in conducting his BFR and that he should find himself some other CFI who is willing to affix his name to the logbook certifying this man's proficiency??

From a non (C)FI point of view, I think you just have to be straight up - and explain to him exactly why you're unwilling to conduct such a check without any formal refresher instruction beforehand.

I completely second this notion. You aren't doing the guy any favors by saying, "Sorry bud, you need to find someone else." In my opinion, I think what you have to say here is absolutely crucial for this guy to hear, and I would go so far as to say that you have a responsibility to tell it to him. He might not realize how big a mistake he's making, and unless someone who knows better (namely you) tells him, he might realize he wasn't prepared for this at an extremely inopportune moment - like right before impact.

Not to be too dramatic, but if I were in your shoes I wouldn't worry about etiquette, although from reading your posts here I have no doubt that you have the tact to handle the situation. Just explain it to him straight out.

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Reply #11 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 3:07am

RitterKreuz Offline
Colonel
Texas

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Posts: 1253

He has been recommended to a good instructor at a nearby airport. So he will be in good hands.

speaking of letting them "hear it"...

It reminds me once several years ago i had a guy come in for a BFR. He had not been in an airplane, even as a passenger in nearly 12 years.

His plan was to get checked out in the rental plane, and combine this with a BFR so he could rent the airplane and fly to Airventure, Oshkosh.

he insisted that he could finish it up on a Saturday before lunch. so i gave him a list of the things i would need him to demonstrate satisfactorily at a minimum before i would sign off his BFR.

i dont recall everything i told him but the list resembled this one

1. normal takeoffs and landings
2. no flap takeoffs and landings
3. slips to landing
4. crosswind takeoff and landing
5. navigation by Pilotage, Dead reconing, VOR and GPS
6. Maneuvering during slow flight
7. Power on and off stall recovery
8. Steep Turn
9. Simulated engine failure including memory item and check list use

he looked at the list briefly and said "fair enough, should be no real problem."

Building on the comment, i asked "Well... since your going to be navigating quite a long way to Oshkosh, im going to place special emphasis on cross country navigation into complex airspace. How do you feel about your cross country navigation capabilities like on a scale of 1 to 10? 1 being easily lost 10 being that you would fly across the USA tomorrow if you had to."

his response astounded me "about a 9 i guess." Huh

I told him to plan a cross country to an airport about 60 miles away and we would see how that goes on Saturday.

Saturday comes around and his "flight plan" was a little sticky note pad with the name of the airport and basic frequencies recorded on it. Undecided

"ive been there before, it should be a pretty quick trip" he said

now, if you takeoff from this airport of mine, there is a long highway running most of the length of Texas that LITERALLY goes from the parking lot of my home airport to the parking lot of the destination airport. it is dotted with small towns in between. The appropriate heading would be about 150 degrees.

he takes off ok. and flies about a 200 degree heading. about 15 minutes into the flight he is struggling to trim it for level flight but finally manages. i said "Ok... show me on the sectional chart where you are."

he fumbled around for a minute looking out the window, looking at the chart, back to the window and finally pointed to a spot on the chart due east of our departure airport. he located our position with about a 30 nm margin of error Wink

he basically determined that we were somewhere in the eastern half of Texas.

"no, i disagree, i'm quite confident thats NOT remotely close to where we are. how can you verify your position?"

he was confused by the question so i hinted "Are you any good with VOR navigation?"

surprisingly he had an answer out of the hint "I can localize with 2 or more VORs" i admit i was a little excited that he knew that

"Yeah! so why dont you show me how to do that and get us found"

so he tunes in a VOR frequency, and fumbles around with the OBS knob... mind you that we are covering ground on the wrong heading at about 120+ knots ground speed all throughout this process.

after about 2 or 3 minutes of him jacking around i said "why dont you talk me through the process?" so he spouted off some babel about to and from flags and OBS courses and bearings and radials that made absolutely NO sense and finally he said

"You know... i really have no idea what the hell im talking about to be honest with VORs i guess they confuse me more than i thought"

so i gave him instruction on that and we got found and headed in the right direction.

his performance on the maneuvers went better than i expected... and he actually managed to locate a safe field for his engine out and made it look convincing.

We did a couple of bounce and goes at the destination and our North departure was approved yet he steadily tracked west for a good 10 - 15 minutes while i watched quietly.

"Hey... im pretty sure we need to head north... get back over the highway and It will get us home if you follow it."

so he did... about an hour later i kid you not... he enters a full traffic pattern for a drag race track complete with 30 foot lights on the edges and a concrete divider wall down the first couple of hundred feet.

we were on a quarter mile final before he realized his error.

we flew a few more miles and landed at home

"Well... how do you feel about the flight? do you feel ready for the 700+ mile trip to the busiest aviation event in the USA?"

he shook his head in disappointment "Clearly not... i have severely overestimated my capabilities."

i was glad that he had seen that

we spent a hand full of days in remedial training for his BFR, he did get signed off and flew to Oshkosh... successfully. Wink

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Reply #12 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 12:07pm

olderndirt Offline
Colonel
Flying is PFM
Rochester, WA

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Consider this - he may have been demonstrating the exact level of knowledge he had before quitting flying twelve years prior. Often learning curves become more boomerang shaped after the license is acquired.

THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER

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