I understand that the PiperSport is the CZAW SportCruiser built under licence. This is a Czech design which is becoming popular in Britain where the NPPL restrictions are slightly different from the Light Sport category in the US.

I've always thought that some of these "Light Sport" aircraft are very expensive & not suitable for the average sport pilot. There are some types which are much more economical & times are hard at the moment. I know several pilots who can no longer afford to run their own aircraft. We'll have to wait & see if the new Piper will 'take off'.

What I don't understand is why the AIRCRAFT is limited to that. What is wrong with it that it's not allowed night flights?

Hagar wrote on Jul 12^th, 2010 at 3:47pm:


I always knew the LSA pilots were restricted to day, but I always thought if a private pilot (myself) was in a LSA aircraft, I could exercise the priveleges of my private pilot.  Apparently not so I've found out.  The aircraft is certified as a LSA, and subject to all the rules there of.  It is not a matter of how it is registered (LSA's all have N-Numbers anyway). 

I thought the PiperSport had a lot of promis (very roomy, good range and economy, just as fast as a Cherokee or 172), and maybe they will sell a version that is a certified aircraft.  But I know of at least a couple of potential owners who decided against it because of the day restriction.  Plus for that kind of money, I can get a really nice 182 or even Bonanza.

My biggest beef was the price of these glorified ultralights.  They are packed full of the newest and greatest technology (and charge you for it), but aren't allowed to use it.

As Rotty mentioned; whether intended or not, the LSA thing found  a solid niche... A means for older pilots to keep flying reasonable aircraft, after they reach a point where they will not pass a medical exam (this might be me as soon as October).  Whether or not that's a good thing, is subjective. I know a fella flying LSA whose health has him pushing his limits backing a car out of a driveway. 

As for IFR flight; the type of commitment needed to become a competent instrument pilot throws the cost-saving thing out the window.

I can't comment on the Piper, but I have plenty of exposure to one of the most popular LSA models..  a 'Flight Design'  CTLS. I could fill a thread with the reasons I won't even climb back into one. It has a complete glass panel, which IS certified for instrument training only. Why that's a bad idea could be another thread... but we can start with the fact the the panel is junk. The mechanisms/electronics for the HSI alone, are unreliable, and innaccurate. The engine gauges are awaiting a factory recall. The AP guy I talked to, as our club's CTLS was getting repairs has an equally low opinion of not only the avionics and instrumentation, but the airframe itself. He pointed out several potential problem spots in how the frame was modified on the fly; where the exhaust system needed to be re-routed.. the regulator circuitry is cheap and problematic.. and (get this), the "receptacle" for attaching an external battery ended up being two, bared wires extending under the cowling with a bizarre support/protecion arrangement that guarantees a short-circuit. The landing gear will crack the fuselage within a dozen landings, and the tail has a gigantic "bumper" because tail-strikes are inevitable. It's uncomfortably twitchy during takeoff in ANY wind.. and ridiculously uncomfortable in any turbulence.

Now.. that aside, assuming most LSA are sound designs, gets us back to another glitch. Sure, it's cheaper per hour for training, but once licensed, you'll have trouble finding one to rent and fly on your own. Insurance companies still aren't keen on non-medically-certified pilots, with less than PPL training, going off solo. So.. you'll end up having to BUY an airplane to fly without an instructor.. which makes the whole cost-saving thing moot.

Any of you who've been here long, know that I think this whole LSA thing was not only a solution for a problem that doesn't exist; it creates a whole set of new problems.

The airplanes themselves can be great ways to ecomomically punch holes in the sky for an already licensed pilot. But this whole theory of making learning flying cheap, is oxymoronic.

As for instrument flight in general.. LSAs aren't a very stable platform for knowingly venturing into IMC. I do believe that an experienced instrument pilot should have the option for equiping his LSA with good avionics/instruments and getting it certified for instrument flight. Trick there, is that a very small percentage of experienced instrument pilots would even want to fly off into poor weather, in a 90hp airplane weighing 1200 pounds.

Well, if you're not a sport pilot, don't get a sport plane. Buy a used certified plane, preferably one with 4 seats and an IFR panel. There are many that are cheaper than a new LSA, and are proven designs.

beaky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2010 at 3:55pm:


The aircraft is equipped, but is placarded and has DAY VFR ONLY in the operator's manual.  That was my question, why go through the trouble of equipping it if it won't be doing it.

As for buying it versus a real airplane, I many liked the PiperSport because it meets all my mission requirements, and has a 46.5 in wide cabin, something not many other light aircraft that I have found have.  There was an opportunity to get into a partnership on one, for a reasonable price, but the DAY issue killed it. 

So its basically the same as getting winter wheels for your Audi S6 and the 'no more than 210 kmh' sticker on the window because they dont have winter wheels over speed category 'V'... You can do it but its not legal

Ok, I have learned why the PiperSport is not certified at night.  It actually has nothing to do with the LSA cert.  The Czech sport aircraft (which Piper bought and relabeled), is certified at night.  However when Piper asked the FAA to cert it as the PiperSport, they noticed the white navigation lights (which are wingtip mounted instead of on the tail) are not completely visible from directly aft, due to the shape of the wingtip.  There is talk of a fix, basically a white led mounted on the tail, which would remove the night restriction.