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US/Ukrainian venture plane to enter USAF contest (Read 1017 times)
Jul 8th, 2010 at 9:34pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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Quote:
Originally published Friday, July 2, 2010 at 7:24 AM

Ukrainian plane to enter Air Force tanker contest


A tiny, cash-strapped California aerospace supplier says it has teamed with the Ukrainian manufacturer of Antonov aircraft to make a longshot bid for the U.S. Air Force tanker contract.


By Seattle Times business staff

A tiny, cash-strapped California aerospace supplier says it has teamed with the Ukrainian manufacturer of Antonov aircraft to make a longshot bid for the U.S. Air Force tanker contract.

The company, called US Aerospace, is delinquent on federal and state income and payroll taxes, as well as two car loans, according to a regulatory filing last month. And its latest quarterly statement warns that its financial troubles "raise substantial doubt" it can survive without raising more money soon.

All that would presumably change if the late entrant can wrest the $35 billion tanker contract away from bidders Boeing and Airbus parent EADS, which have battled over the 179 plane job for years.

But that's a big if.

US Aerospace said it signed a joint-venture agreement Thursday with the Ukrainian state-owned company Antonov, and immediately notified the U.S. Department of Defense it would join the tanker competition.

"We anticipate bidding three models of aircraft, the AN-124-KC, AN-122-KC and AN-112-KC," the company said in a regulatory filing.

"The airframes will be built by Antonov in Ukraine, with final assembly in the United States. We believe that we will be able to offer a superior aircraft at a significantly lower price than other potential bidders."

The company, which is based near Los Angeles, said its agreement with the Ukrainian plane maker also contemplates bidding for other U.S. defense contracts and selling Antonov's aircraft and services commercially in the U.S.

Besides needing money, US Aerospace faces the challenge of receiving special security clearances because of secret military systems built into the airplane. EADS is tightly bound into the defense establishment of Western Europe that is allied with the U.S., and has the classified clearances it needs to build the tanker.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2012263539_tanker03.htm...


I don't know how far it would make it, but a 3 way fly off would be cool.
 

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Reply #1 - Jul 8th, 2010 at 9:43pm

DaveSims   Offline
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Do the Ukrainians/Russians even have a viable large tanker aircraft, or would it be a modification of an existing airframe.  I noticed an AN-124 KC, which I would venture to guess is a AN-124 modified.
 
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Reply #2 - Jul 8th, 2010 at 9:59pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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I'm trying to find the An-122 & An-112, with no luck.
 

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Reply #3 - Jul 8th, 2010 at 10:01pm
SeanTK   Ex Member

 
Well that's not going to go far. I doubt that the US would spring for a "Russian" airplane...there is too much pride and too many egos involved.

@davysims,

They are mainly offering mods to an existing airframe (the An-124) basically with either the 4 engine, or a 2 engined variant. Note....the An-122 is a two engined version.
It also looks like they are adding a third option of a completely new frame, dubbed the An-112. I think if you find any images at all of these, it would be concept art.

Regarding the first options....it's a very viable & logical thing to do. Keep in mind that the US is currently using   airframe modifications to support their current force....namely the KC-10 (DC-10), and KC-135 (707). It's cheaper than building a new airframe/aircraft just for tanking purposes.

With most "eastern" forces, the current tanker is a mod of the Ilyushin IL-76.

 
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Reply #4 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 2:28pm

Ivan   Offline
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With cameras its just a bunch of flexible fuel cells and some extra piping in the wing...

The Il-78 has depending on which version is used either fixed tanks or flexible tanks
 

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones),  Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here
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Reply #5 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 5:58am

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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Quote:
U.S. Aerospace Protests KC-X Source Selection

By Amy Butler abutler@aviationweek.com

The Pentagon is assessing only two bids for the U.S. Air Force KC-135 replacement competition because a last-minute proposal from U.S. Aerospace/Antonov was not received before the deadline, according to Geoff Morrell, Pentagon press secretary.

This has sparked a protest from U.S. Aerospace filed Aug. 2 with the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO). Company officials say that the “conduct of the Air Force was unreasonable,” among other complaints, according to an industry executive. They claim that personnel at the Aeronautical Systems Center at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio, where the KC-X program office is located, discriminated against their bid.

Bids for the KC-X competition, estimated to be worth about $35 billion for 179 tankers, were due at 2 p.m. July 9 local time at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio (which is in the Eastern time zone). EADS submitted its proposal a day early, and dispatched two copies — one by air and one by ground — to be sure it arrived. Boeing’s submission was received at around 9 a.m. July 9, according to Morrell. “Those deadlines count,” he says. “They mean something. They are there for a reason and any professional contractor knows that.” Both EADS and Boeing said their proposals were more than 8,000 pages in length.

According to an industry executive, a messenger carrying a bid from U.S. Aerospace arrived at the Wright-Patterson gate at about 1:30 p.m., 30 minutes before the deadline. “Air Force personnel intentionally denied the messenger entry to the base” and later provided “incorrect directions,” and forced the messenger to wait when he got turned around. The proposal was marked 2:05 p.m., but this executive says that the bid was under Air Force control prior to that time

Morrell, however, stands by the Pentagon’s view that the proposal was not received on time. “This is a $30-40 billion bid,” he says. “This is not a high school homework assignment. Deadlines count here.”

U.S. Aerospace/Antonov had requested an extension to the proposal due date, but that was declined by the Pentagon. On March 31, the Defense Department had already extended the deadline by 60 days to provide time for EADS to prepare its bid. Its longtime teaming arrangement with former prime contractor Northrop Grumman ended abruptly in March, forcing the company to step up in the prime role at the last minute.

“The proposal was late and by law we are not allowed to consider it,” Morrell said in response to a query from AVIATION WEEK. “We are considering two proposals and U.S. Aerospace is not one of those being considered.”

Chuck Arnold, a senior advisor to U.S. Aerospace, says the company is proposing an An-112 concept based on the four-engine An-70 transport. The design features a boom capable of offloading 1,600 gal. per minute (more than the 1,200 gal. per minute required by the Air Force), and he boasts that it would be far less expensive than the Boeing 767-based design or the EADS A330-200 tanker platform.

Arnold declined to identify the boom manufacturer or any U.S. partners other than U.S. Aerospace, a small firm based in Southern California that was to be prime; he citied a nondisclosure agreement with Antonov. Antonov is a state-owned manufacturer in the Ukraine, but Arnold insisted, without providing details, that some assembly of the tankers would take place in the United States.

The eleventh-hour emergence of the U.S. Aerospace/Antonov bid sparked many questions. U.S. Aerospace is a small company; in Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) filings the company has listed about 30 employees. It is not clear how such a small contractor would be able to manage a massive contract and supply chain, though Arnold touts the small company size as a benefit in lean management.

Additionally, the company has recently had financial problems, including debt. Arnold notes that board members recently secured an influx of funding to “clean up the books,” but this, too, calls into question the ability of the firm to manage a major Defense Department contract. A July 1 SEC filing notes additional cash on hand.

A new board of directors took over the company in March, renaming it from New Century to U.S. Aerospace and shifting the focus to address only aerospace products.

However, the company seemed even in its July 1 SEC filing to be aware that it may not meet the requirements called for by the Air Force. To compete in KC-X, each bidder must meet 372 mandatory requirements and demonstrate its ability to manage the contract. The Pentagon’s denial for the bid extension was “resulting in a significantly more rushed process than we desired, and substantially hindering our ability to submit a full and complete bid package,” according to the July 1 SEC filing from U.S. Aerospace. “The Air Force may find that our proposal does not meet all mandatory RFP requirement, that we do not have qualified subcontractors and teaming partners, that we are not a capable and responsible contractor, that we have not obtained or processed the classified information that is needed to prepare a proposal, that we have not demonstrated that the company has the facility and personnel clearances that are prerequisites to receiving, handling and storing classified information, and that our failure to meet the proposal submittal deadline was attributable to our failure to act diligently and promptly.”

Arnold says that “If our plane is looked at, we will be selected,” adding that he expects “obstacles” for the company in competing.

The Air Force’s tanker pursuits have been years in the making. A 2002 attempt by the service to lease Boeing 767 tankers crumbled after Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) found bloated pricing and began an investigation that eventually led to jail time for former senior Air Force procurement official Darleen Druyun and former Boeing Chief Financial Office Michael Sears.

A later competition won by Northrop Grumman/EADS was thrown out after a Boeing protest uncovered missteps by the Air Force during the source selection process. More recently, Defense Secretary Robert Gates himself stepped in last year to table a new competition; he called for a “cooling off” period between the contractors.

The current competition is the Air Force’s most recent attempt to replacing aging KC-135s. A downselect is expected in November shortly after the national elections.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2010/08/04/awx_08_0...
 

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Reply #6 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 10:53am

HawkSpeedSix   Offline
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DaveSims wrote on Jul 8th, 2010 at 9:43pm:
Do the Ukrainians/Russians even have a viable large tanker aircraft, or would it be a modification of an existing airframe.  I noticed an AN-124 KC, which I would venture to guess is a AN-124 modified.


No they don't, the airframe this is allegedly based on is effectively a twin turbofan version of the AN-70 - and we know how well that programme has gone. I suspect the credibility of this bid is close to zero.

Large strategic transport designed for oversized cargo tend not to make great tankers.
« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2010 at 2:08pm by HawkSpeedSix »  
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Reply #7 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 2:57pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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A little more info

Quote:
The Government Accountability Office is now reviewing the Aug. 2 protest filed by US. Aerospace/Antonov.

The company is claiming it was unfairly shut out of the competition. And, the crux of this argument will likely boil down to the type of discussion that former President Bill Clinton had when he said "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is."

At issue is when USAF took control of the proposal documents submitted by U.S. Aerospace. All of the following detail was provide from an industry executive who wished to be anonymous due to the sensitivity of the issue.

The company claims its messenger, which was delivering the proposal was at the Wright-Patterson Area B gate before 1:30 p.m. July 9. The deadline was 2 p.m. that day.

According to the company, Air Force personnel at the gate "initially denied the messenger entry to the base, then gave incorrect direction to the 1755 Eleventh Street Building 570," where the proposal was headed. The messenger apparently became lost, and Air Force personnel told him to wait while they came to him.

By the time the papers reached their destination, the Air Force stamped the proposal as being received at 2:05 p.m.

U.S. Aerospace was notified July 22 via a letter from the Aeronautical Systems Center at Wright-Patt that the company's bid was late and would not be considered as part of the source selection.

So, one of the questions that is likely to be addressed as GAO reviews the protest is at what point the USAF had "control" over the proposal.

Was it when the messenger stepped onto the base? I'd suspect that when it comes to matters of security, the Air Force would say its personnel have control over all people on their bases. When it comes to a contracting matter, it may be different.

Apparently, Air Force officials subsequently told a company representative that delays at installation gates are common (and they are -- I've been subject to more than a few), and that the company should have anticipated this potential snag and planned appropriately.

But, the U.S. Aerospace argument is that Air Force personnel "intentionally delayed the messenger from delivering the proposal in order to create a pretext for refusing to consider it because they have political issues" with the principal supplier, Ukrainian state owned Antonov, according to the industry executive.

If this is proven to be true, it will bring the KC-X competition and the entire U.S. Air Force acquisition system to its knees after and already rough decade of missteps and scandals.

Another issue likely to arise during the review process is whether the Air Force was responsive to requests from U.S. Aerospace to the classified documents required to provide a fully compliant bid.

The U.S. Aerospace argument is that the Air Force took a week or more to provide the documentation required for the company to respond to its bid. The Air Force, however, has a rigid process for such communications and asked the company to resubmit its request through an official process channel. The net result was that the company had less time to review the materials and respond to the RFP.

On this matter, the Air Force is likely to argue that the processes for bidders are set -- as laid out in the FAR -- and the service is unable to budge from them.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckB...
 

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Reply #8 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 3:59pm

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The Air Force boys just better take really good care of those old KC-135s.  At this rate they will be around for a long time to come.
 
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Reply #9 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 4:27pm

HawkSpeedSix   Offline
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DaveSims wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 3:59pm:
The Air Force boys just better take really good care of those old KC-135s.  At this rate they will be around for a long time to come.


Yep. At this rate, the KC-X is going to make the UK's defence procurement system look reasonably efficient. That'll be quite an achievement. Smiley

 
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Reply #10 - Aug 7th, 2010 at 4:39pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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Quote:
Latest KC-X Protest Not Likely Precedent


The U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) has a healthy set of case law exploring the question of proposal tardiness upon which to draw during its review of the U.S. Aerospace protest of the U.S. Air Force’s KC-X source selection process, according to a GAO official.

Ralph White, managing associate general counsel for procurement law, says that there have been many similar cases reviewed by GAO in its 50 years of handling bid protests.

U.S. Aerospace, which is partnered with Antonov to propose a modified An-70 for the Air Force’s KC-135 replacement program, filed its protest Aug. 2. The company says that Air Force officials intentionally delayed a messenger from entering Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio, in time to deliver the bid by the July 9, 2 p.m. deadline. An industry official says the bid is stamped as received at 2:05 p.m. (Aerospace DAILY, Aug. 5).

The stakes are high. The KC-X contract for 179 tankers is estimated to be worth about $35 billion. Boeing has proposed a modified 767 while EADS is basing its design on the A330-200.

Both the Air Force and U.S. Aerospace will have a deep body of prior cases on which to base their arguments. It is unlikely the outcome of this particular protest will be precedent setting, White says.

The schedule for the protest process is as follows:

• The Air Force has 30 calendar days to file its argument in response to the U.S. Aerospace protest. White says the service can submit its response early if it wants to hasten the process.

• U.S. Aerospace then has 10 calendar days to file a response to the Air Force’s arguments. If a hearing is required, it would then be set and executed.

• GAO’s final decision will be announced no later than 100 calendar days after the protest was filed, which is Nov. 10.

Executive-branch agencies do not have to follow protest rulings from the GAO, which is an arm of Congress, but they often do, lest lawmakers further interfere or the issue go to the courts, which also look to GAO rulings.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/asd/2010/08/06/05.xml&h...


By the time something is picked the KC-390 and A400M, should have seen combat a few times.
 

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Reply #11 - Aug 8th, 2010 at 5:26pm

Ivan   Offline
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HawkSpeedSix wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 10:53am:
DaveSims wrote on Jul 8th, 2010 at 9:43pm:
Do the Ukrainians/Russians even have a viable large tanker aircraft, or would it be a modification of an existing airframe.  I noticed an AN-124 KC, which I would venture to guess is a AN-124 modified.


No they don't, the airframe this is allegedly based on is effectively a twin turbofan version of the AN-70 - and we know how well that programme has gone. I suspect the credibility of this bid is close to zero.

Large strategic transport designed for oversized cargo tend not to make great tankers.

An-70s have a 'fast wing'... they have a top speed of 750kmh... not bad for a turboprop although a Tu-95 is another 200kmh faster (max design speed of these is 950kmh)

And strategic transports as tankers... look here, Two were rebuilt and are still flying around and refuelling F-14's.
 

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones),  Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here
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Reply #12 - Aug 8th, 2010 at 7:32pm

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Ivan wrote on Aug 8th, 2010 at 5:26pm:
HawkSpeedSix wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 10:53am:
DaveSims wrote on Jul 8th, 2010 at 9:43pm:
Do the Ukrainians/Russians even have a viable large tanker aircraft, or would it be a modification of an existing airframe.  I noticed an AN-124 KC, which I would venture to guess is a AN-124 modified.


No they don't, the airframe this is allegedly based on is effectively a twin turbofan version of the AN-70 - and we know how well that programme has gone. I suspect the credibility of this bid is close to zero.

Large strategic transport designed for oversized cargo tend not to make great tankers.

An-70s have a 'fast wing'... they have a top speed of 750kmh... not bad for a turboprop although a Tu-95 is another 200kmh faster (max design speed of these is 950kmh)

And strategic transports as tankers... look here, Two were rebuilt and are still flying around and refuelling F-14's.


The only way that 747 could still be refueling F-14s would be in Iran, or parked next to one in the desert.
 
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Reply #13 - Aug 9th, 2010 at 12:48pm

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DaveSims wrote on Aug 8th, 2010 at 7:32pm:
Ivan wrote on Aug 8th, 2010 at 5:26pm:
HawkSpeedSix wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 10:53am:
DaveSims wrote on Jul 8th, 2010 at 9:43pm:
Do the Ukrainians/Russians even have a viable large tanker aircraft, or would it be a modification of an existing airframe.  I noticed an AN-124 KC, which I would venture to guess is a AN-124 modified.


No they don't, the airframe this is allegedly based on is effectively a twin turbofan version of the AN-70 - and we know how well that programme has gone. I suspect the credibility of this bid is close to zero.

Large strategic transport designed for oversized cargo tend not to make great tankers.

An-70s have a 'fast wing'... they have a top speed of 750kmh... not bad for a turboprop although a Tu-95 is another 200kmh faster (max design speed of these is 950kmh)

And strategic transports as tankers... look here, Two were rebuilt and are still flying around and refuelling F-14's.


The only way that 747 could still be refueling F-14s would be in Iran, or parked next to one in the desert.


Quote:
The year 1974 marked the first flight of the KC-747. A total of three were made, and possibly one remains in service, Outfitted with a KC-135 boom, the first 747 ever made was modified as a test bed for proximity tests and aerial refueling equipment integration. The Imperial Iranian AF bought 12 used 747s to be modified for military applications, three of which were configured as tankers. During exercise Midlink 77 Oct-Dec 1977, 50th Tactical Fighter Wing F-4 crews became the first in the USAF to be refueled by a KC-747 of the Imperial Iranian Air Force
.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/kc-25.htm
 

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Reply #14 - Aug 9th, 2010 at 2:58pm

HawkSpeedSix   Offline
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Ivan wrote on Aug 8th, 2010 at 5:26pm:
And strategic transports as tankers... look here, Two were rebuilt and are still flying around and refuelling F-14's.


Ok, I'll rephrase that. Large military strategic transports don't historically make good tankers. Wink

As for flying around refuelling F-14s, I suspect that depends on the serviceability of the F-14s.

The 747's too big to be an effective tanker though, unless you plan your war very, very well. Smiley
 
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