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EADS Tanker Bid (Read 3065 times)
Reply #15 -
Jan 13
th
, 2011 at 6:05pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Boeing, EADS tanker debate playing out in magazine ads?
Wichita Business Journal
While the U.S. Air Force hasn’t yet had the opportunity to evaluate tanker bids from Boeing and EADS, the fight continues to be played out publicly in the pages of industry publications such as Aviation Week and Space Technology.
The Air Force is expected to make a decision in February.
Consider the Jan. 10 Aviation Week issue, which includes a two-page ad from Boeing, complete with American flags and closeups of two crew members, contending that the 767-based tanker offering is “For tanker crews, the most capable tanker.”
The EADS North America single-page ad goes to the heart of the matter: Which aircraft will cost less?
“Do the math” says that ad, contending that the EADS KC-45, based on Airbus’ A330 twin jet, will deliver a gallon of jet fuel for 24 percent less on a 1,500 mile mission.
As aerospace analyst Scott Hamilton points out in a blog post Wednesday, these are complex computations.
While Boeing’s smaller 767-based tanker might seem inherently cheaper, Boeing still has to absorb the cost of developing the “NewGen” version it’s promising the Air Force, while Airbus’ version is already ready.
Boeing boosters continue to be frustrated that the Air Force isn’t paying attention to a World Trade Organization ruling that the A330 was built with European subsidies illegal under WTO rules. Sen. Patty Murray, for instance, has contended that the subsidies will help Airbus ratchet down its price, compared to Boeing’s.
The larger Airbus plane will be inherently more expensive to operate, and will require some adjustment of facilities used to supporting the current Boeing 707 tankers.
But Hamilton suggests the EADs aircraft’s larger fuel capacity may be seen as a benefit by Air Force planners worried that geopolitical changes will curtail U.S. use of bases closer areas of conflict. If tankers have to fly further they need more fuel to keep themselves in the air, in order to deliver the fuel where it’s needed, he said.
In addition, Hamilton suggests that the fact that the EADS plane is based on a newer A330 airframe, which continues to sell well, may make it easier to keep operational as the tanker fleet ages than Boeing’s older 767.
Currently Boeing has only 50 model 767s on order, versus Airbus’ 372 orders for various A330 versions.
The current KC 135 tankers are based on the Boeing 707, which was built by Boeing until 1991.
Boeing says its tanker program would mean 7,500 new jobs in Kansas, including many at its defense facility in Wichita.
http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/news/2011/01/13/boeing-eads-tanker-debate-pla...
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Reply #16 -
Jan 13
th
, 2011 at 7:25pm
C
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Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 13
th
, 2011 at 6:05pm:
Quote:
Consider the Jan. 10 Aviation Week issue, which includes a two-page ad from Boeing, complete with American flags and closeups of two crew members, contending that the 767-based tanker offering is
“For tanker crews, the most capable tanker.”
What a bizarre line to take. Yes, in the long run, it may be argued by some that it's the better tanker for the USAF, but to say it's the most capable as a tanker is pushing it a wee bit, certainly considering all operational US tanker bases have 10,000ft+ runways and apron space enough to accommodate the entire inventory of the Royal Air Force!
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Reply #17 -
Jan 13
th
, 2011 at 8:26pm
DaveSims
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 13
th
, 2011 at 6:05pm:
Quote:
Boeing, EADS tanker debate playing out in magazine ads?
The larger Airbus plane will be inherently more expensive to operate, and will require some adjustment of facilities used to supporting the current Boeing 707 tankers.
I have mixed opinions on this topic, but I am curious what changes the Airbus would require that a 767 wouldn't. Not exactly like the 767 has any commonality with a KC-135 other than the Boeing on the nameplate.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Reply #18 -
Jan 14
th
, 2011 at 5:24am
C
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Earth
Posts: 13144
DaveSims wrote
on Jan 13
th
, 2011 at 8:26pm:
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 13
th
, 2011 at 6:05pm:
Quote:
Boeing, EADS tanker debate playing out in magazine ads?
The larger Airbus plane will be inherently more expensive to operate, and will require some adjustment of facilities used to supporting the current Boeing 707 tankers.
I have mixed opinions on this topic, but I am curious what changes the Airbus would require that a 767 wouldn't. Not exactly like the 767 has any commonality with a KC-135 other than the Boeing on the nameplate.
The changes mainly involve paint - The A330 has about a 40ft wider wing span. There were some arguments over pavement strength too, but in the big picture, these are minor issues.
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Reply #19 -
Jan 14
th
, 2011 at 7:12am
Souichiro
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Posts: 1092
The most hilarious point is that Boeing wants to include the WTO ruling...while there is also a similair investigation running against them XD
&&
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Reply #20 -
Jan 15
th
, 2011 at 2:10pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
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And when Northrup was spearheading the A330 MRTT at the time, they did find out that the A330 was 5% more fuel efficient then the B767, not the 26% the other way around that Boeing was saying, it was latter brought to light that the "company" that did the study was owned by Boeing.
And seeing all 3 up close, the B767 wheels are closer to the KC-135's wheels but just a little bigger, while the A330 has larger wider wheels to distribute the weight more evenly.
And Boeing will not let the USAF choose their motors, they already struck a deal with Pratt & Whitney for uprated 50,000Lbs motors. While the A330 will have GE 70,000lbs motors.
Souichiro wrote
on Jan 14
th
, 2011 at 7:12am:
The most hilarious point is that Boeing wants to include the WTO ruling...while there is also a similair investigation running against them XD
This should tell you what they tried on December
.
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 6
th
, 2011 at 3:32am:
Quote:
Boeing tries the back door
by The Anniston Star Editorial Board
December 9, 2010
You have to give Boeing Co. and its political allies credit. When it comes to securing the $40 billion Air Force refueling tanker contract, they don’t give up.
What does it matter if Defense Secretary Robert Gates and the Air Force feel that Boeing’s tactics are, in the words of U.S. Rep. Jo Bonner, R-Mobile, “underhanded.”
What do they care if their efforts represent, as U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Mobile, put it, “an unacceptable political attempt” to confuse and delay the acquisition of these much-needed planes.
Why should they follow procedure and notify U.S. Rep. Buck McKeon, R-Calif., the ranking member and soon-to-be chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, of a bill they wanted to slip through a Congress that was hurriedly trying to finish its business and adjourn?
Who cares? Not Boeing and friends.
What Boeing’s political allies did was introduce at the 11th hour the “Defense Level Playing Field Act,” which would require the Pentagon to factor in a yet unresolved World Trade Organization dispute over subsidies to tanker companies when it selects the company to receive the contract. Gates, the Air Force and others rightly see this as having little to do with this competition. Nevertheless, Boeing got a tired and distracted Congress to approve the measure.
Sessions called it the “Boeing Preservation Act” and vowed to kill it in the Senate. Observers feel he has the support to do it. Good for Sessions.
Of course, this page wants Boeing’s competitor EADS to win the contract because it will mean a $600 million assembly facility in the Mobile area and thousands of good jobs for Alabama people.
But there are other reasons Alabamians should want EADS to prevail. The EADS tanker, defense analysts say, is better suited for what the Air Force requires.
Moreover, if the contract is let early next year, production can begin and the Air Force will sooner get the tanker that it has named its top priority.
It is disappointing to see that the Alabama, Florida and Mississippi delegations were not able to block this bill in the House, where most members were apparently caught by surprise and did not mount serious opposition to it. Now it becomes the task of Sens. Sessions and Richard Shelby, R-Tuscaloosa, to do a better job for the state and the region.
They need to be up to the task.
Read more: Anniston Star - Boeing tries the back door
http://annistonstar.com/bookmark/10805750-Boeing-tries-the-back-door
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Reply #21 -
Jan 16
th
, 2011 at 10:10am
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 15
th
, 2011 at 2:10pm:
And seeing all 3 up close, the B767 wheels are closer to the KC-135's wheels but just a little bigger, while the A330 has larger wider wheels to distribute the weight more evenly.
IIRC the key point of the A330/KC-45
for the USAF
is that they were offering it with the centre bogey of the A340 under the fuselage (similar to the DC/KC-10), which changes the pavement strength requirements fairly significantly. This is the advantage of the NG/EADS offered purpose built aircraft compared to the basic KC-30 conversion of the A330 airframe.
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Reply #22 -
Jan 16
th
, 2011 at 1:54pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
Gender:
Posts: 1148
There has been nothing confirmed about the A340's center gear on the A330 MRTT. The original prototype built for the USAF was normal gear configuration, just like the Australians plane. The only thing from the A340 was the wings, that way they did not have to strengthen the wings for the pods like Boeing had to do for the KC-767, so all they did was use the #1 & #4 engine pylon were to go, this saved time.
A lot of people on forms kept speculating that they would use the A340 center Gear, but since the whole premise was that it was based on the A330 not the A340, there was no need for the center gear. Not even the A330 freighter has a center gear set up.
If you look up any of the UK or Aus A330 MRTT pictures, there is none with a center gear or doors for a center gear, and the Aus version is what the USAF would be getting.
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Reply #23 -
Jan 16
th
, 2011 at 4:28pm
C
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Earth
Posts: 13144
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 16
th
, 2011 at 1:54pm:
There has been nothing confirmed about the A340's center gear on the A330 MRTT. The original prototype built for the USAF was normal gear configuration, just like the Australians plane.
My mistake, I thought the centre gear had been proposed for the US built KC-45. Its omission from the basic KC-30 for the RAF/RAAF was a potential pitfall, and one that Boeing/competitors offering 767 based solutions could pick up on.
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Reply #24 -
Jan 18
th
, 2011 at 7:57pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
Gender:
Posts: 1148
Quote:
House Armed Services chairman restructures committee
In a move Republicans hope will pave the way for more efficient and effective oversight of the Pentagon and the military services, House Armed Services Committee Chairman Buck McKeon, R-Calif., on Monday announced changes to the jurisdictions of many of its seven subcommittees.
Realigning the Armed Services subcommittees has become tradition for the panel each time the chairman's gavel switches hands. When Democrats took control of the House in 2007, then-chairman Ike Skelton, D-Mo., created a seventh subcommittee for oversight and investigations and tweaked the other subcommittees' responsibilities.
At the time, Skelton, who lost reelection in November, wanted to align each subcommittee's jurisdiction closer to the individual military services' budgets and programs. Skelton's efforts undid many of the changes imposed by his Republican predecessor, former Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., who organized the subcommittees to focus on different military missions
The changes made by McKeon appear to be a return to Hunter's mission-based subcommittee organizations.
The biggest changes appear to be within the Air and Land Forces Subcommittee and the Seapower and Expeditionary Forces Subcommittee, which have been renamed Tactical Air and Land Forces and Seapower and Projection Forces to reflect their new responsibilities.
The Tactical Air and Land Forces Subcommittee will continue to oversee most Army and Air Force acquisition programs and now will also assume oversight of all Marine Corps programs. Notable exceptions, however, are the Marine Corps' amphibious assault vehicle programs, as well as strategic missiles, space, lift programs, special operations, science and technology programs, and information technology accounts, which will fall under the other subcommittee's jurisdictions.
The panel will also be responsible for Navy and Marine Corps aviation programs, which had fallen under the purview of the Seapower and Expeditionary Forces Subcommittee during the last two congresses.
The renamed Seapower and Projection Forces Subcommittee will continue to be responsible for other Navy acquisition programs and the Marines' amphibious assault vehicle programs. Defense Secretary Robert Gates earlier this month canceled the Marine Corps' projected $15 billion Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle program, but the service intends to move forward on a replacement ship-to-shore vehicle "as soon as possible," Commandant Gen. James Amos said last week.
While it lost many Marine Corps programs and naval aviation efforts, the Seapower panel has picked up oversight of several high-profile programs that had once been under the jurisdiction of the Air and Land Forces Subcommittee. These include deep-strike bombers, a major program that the Air Force is still defining, as well as airlift programs and the Air Force tanker program.
The Air Force expects to award a much anticipated contract for the tanker program, which is estimated at around $40 billion, in the next several weeks to either Boeing Co. or EADS North America, making the Seapower panel a major player in one of the military's largest and most contentious programs.
http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=46892&oref=todaysnews
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Reply #25 -
Jan 20
th
, 2011 at 1:46pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
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Chalreston SC
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Quote:
RAAF KC-30A Tanker Damaged In Training
Jan 20, 2011
By Robert Wall wall@aviationweek.com
PARIS
An Airbus Military KC-30A tanker in testing for the Royal Australian Air Force was involved in an incident with a Portugese air force F-16 during a refueling exercise Jan. 20.
More than a dozen refuelings had taken place when the incident occurred. Both aircraft sustained damage.
Details of what transpired are still under review, but the incident caused the refueling boom on the Airbus A330-based tanker to break off and fall into the Atlantic. Both aircraft returned safely to their respective bases.
Spanish authorities will lead the incident investigation, with Australian officials involved.
So far, Airbus Military does not expect any affect on the first delivery of the tanker to the Royal Australian Air Force. That handover is already behind schedule, although Airbus CEO Tom Enders said this week the milestone was imminent.
EADS
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2011/01/20/awx_01_2...
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Reply #26 -
Jan 20
th
, 2011 at 1:58pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 20
th
, 2011 at 1:46pm:
Details of what transpired are still under review, but the incident caused the refueling boom on the Airbus A330-based tanker to break off and fall into the Atlantic. Both aircraft returned safely to their respective bases.
Oddly enough, this potentially isn't bad news at all. Firstly, the important thing is they were refuelling over the sea (tick - when AAR goes wrong, bits quite often fall off, which is why of possible non operational tanking should be preformed "feet wet"
). Secondly, the
major
damage was to a replaceable component, in this case, the boom, just as most damage to AAR hoses is either quickly rectifiable with either a completely new how, or just a new drogue. Damage to a boom or hose is far preferable to structural damage on either the tanker or receiver. Hopefully all we'll hear once investigations are complete, is that for whatever reason, the boom failed in a way it was designed to.
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Reply #27 -
Jan 20
th
, 2011 at 3:04pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
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Totally agree
This means that even though it was crippled it still worked like it was supposed to, and the safety shut offs for the back of the plane functions like they were designed too, and nether plane took any major damage.
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Reply #28 -
Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 4:58am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
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Quote:
Air Force tanker decision likely delayed by Senate hearing
By John T. Bennett - 01/23/11 03:53 PM ET
A Senate hearing to probe the release of sensitive company data will likely delay a KC-X aerial tanker award.
A Senate hearing to probe the release of sensitive company data by the Air Force likely will delay a KC-X aerial tanker award until March — or later.
Defense industry sources told The Hill in recent weeks it was increasingly clear an award in for a $35 billion, 179-plane competition was unlikely to come until mid-February.
But now, there is mounting evidence that an award will not be possible until March, or perhaps later, says Loren Thompson, a defense insider who is the COO at the Lexington Institute, citing conversations with executives.
The driving force behind this latest delay is a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing slated for Jan. 27. At that session, the panel will seek answers from Air Force officials about a mishap that saw the service send data about EADS's and Boeing's tanker bids.
The service has said it was a cleric error. Both companies -- and their champions in Congress -- have raised concerns. Air Force leaders have publicly said they are worried the timing of the hearing could be problematic, hinting a contract announcement is close.
"The Air Force has again delayed a key meeting with rival tanker teams that was supposed to set the stage for submission of final offers from each team," Thompson said.
"The meeting had been expected in January, but key personnel involved in running the competition have now been called away to prepare" for the hearing, Thompson said.
Those meetings have now been pushed to early February, which also delays the service's call for final bids.
"In other words, the Air Force will not even begin reviewing final offers until around Feb. 20 at the earliest," Thompson said.
From that point, the service's selection team will pick a winner, setting off possibly weeks of reviews by Air Force and Pentagon brass.
"So announcement of an award is nearly impossible in February, and may not occur even in March," Thompson said. "Past experience suggests that just getting all the key players in a room to ratify the decision could take weeks, given schedule conflicts."
http://thehill.com/news-by-subject/defense-homeland-security/139559-air-force-ta...
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Reply #29 -
Jan 28
th
, 2011 at 12:00pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
At Hearing, New Details on Military Disc Switch
It was hardly the 18 1/2 -minute gap of Watergate lore.
But a Senate committee on Thursday delved into the forensics of whether a confidential data file related to a $35 billion Air Force contract was opened for 15 seconds or 3 minutes, and what did the service know about it and when did it know it.
The file was opened last November by a manager for one of the bidders, the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company, or EADS. That set off a furor because it contained data about the Air Force evaluation of a bid by Boeing, a rival, to supply aerial refueling tankers.
The Air Force has acknowledged that it accidentally sent each company data about the other’s bids. And once it found out that the EADS worker had briefly opened some of the data, but Boeing had not, it resent the discs to both companies to make sure the playing field was level.
But as the Air Force prepares to seek final bids, the Senate Armed Services Committee, prodded by Boeing’s supporters, demanded the investigative files and held the hearing to examine how the service could have been so sloppy, especially given that two previous efforts to award the contract had collapsed.
Steven Shirley, the executive director of the Defense Department’s cybercrime center, said an examination of an EADS computer and other records supported the company’s contention that the manager had looked at the file only briefly before realizing it involved Boeing’s data.
Pentagon officials described the document as a one-page spreadsheet with 10 lines of preliminary data about how the service scored the Boeing jet’s efficiency in sample refueling missions.
EADS executives said the employee had closed the file in less than 15 seconds and began trying to reach company security officers for help in locking up the disc. At one point, Mr. Shirley said he “roughly” agreed with that estimate. But he later said investigators had told him the file remained open for about three minutes, presumably while the employee was seeking the help.
Still, he said, “what we found on the computer was consistent” with EADS’s assertions that it had quickly reported the mistake to the Air Force.
A report from the forensics lab said that EADS had not saved or copied the data. EADS has said that it immediately took the employee off the program and allowed him to rejoin it only after the Air Force resent the data to both companies and authorized his return.
The investigative reports, released by the committee, also shed new light on how the mix-up occurred.
One report said separate groups within the Air Force wrote the transmittal letters and prepared the discs, and that instructions for packaging them were misconstrued.
The Air Force reassigned two officials involved in the mistake. But Senator Claire McCaskill, a Democrat from Missouri, where Boeing has its defense division headquarters, suggested they should have been punished more severely.
“This is a case study of incompetence in contract competition, this whole debacle, from the beginning to this very moment,” she said.
The Air Force’s first effort to replace its Eisenhower-era tankers collapsed after corruption charges involving a leasing proposal with Boeing. EADS, the parent of Airbus, was part of a team that won the competition in 2008, only to have the government block the award after Boeing protested.
The battle is also highly political, with thousands of jobs for Washington State and Kansas if Boeing wins or for Alabama if EADS does.
Senator Jeff Sessions, a Republican from Alabama, said Boeing could have filed a protest if it was harmed by the mistake.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/business/28tanker.html?_r=1&src=busln
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