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› benefit or draw backs to starting in an LSA??
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benefit or draw backs to starting in an LSA?? (Read 315 times)
Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 7:07pm
Titan_Bow
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virtual Cub owner
Longmont, CO
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I am very interested in working towards a private pilots license, and owning my own airplane. More than likely, it would be used mainly to fly myself and my son around.. Maybe out to some remote fishing/ camping spots, things like that. My dream is to have a nice little bush-type plane that is rugged, sturdy and somewhat affordable to operate.
I see there are alot of LSA eligible planes that seem to fit this bill, and are quite affordable.
I've noticed that the licensing costs for LSA are about half that of the regular private pilots license.
What are the benefits or downside to going the LSA route, then working on my license more gradually?
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Reply #1 -
Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 7:31pm
The Ruptured Duck
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Depends on what you intend to do with it. You should know that someone with a light sport license can only fly 50miles or so from their home airport. I could see renting an LSA for basic flight training then moving over to a cessna, piper, diamond for the rest of the training for the ppl. This would in theory save some money because LSA's are in theory cheaper to operate.
A drawback would be having to learn to fly 2 aircraft instead of 1 during your training, possibly causing you to fly more hours and spend more money.
I myself have never flown an LSA and these are only my speculations.
"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing" -Ben Franklin&&&&"Man must rise above the Earth to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only thus will he fully understand the world in which he lives." - Socrates&&&&" Flying is a religion. A religion that asymilates all who get a taste of it." - Me&&&&"Make the most out of yourself, for that is all there is of you"- Ralf Waldo Emerson&&
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Reply #2 -
Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 7:45pm
DaveSims
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Clear Lake, Iowa
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I do believe you can get your private pilot license in an LSA aircraft. Many people have in the past (Piper Cub anyone?) It just takes a little more flight time, and covers a few more maneuvers. You can fly and operate an LSA with a private license, with all the same priveleges. Now if you are only going to get a LSA license, then you are restricted in when, where, and how far you can fly. You can even use your private pilot license as an LSA license if your medical expires (and you don't have any illnesses that preclude you from being safe to fly). As for ownership, I've looked into it myself. The biggest drawbacks to an LSA aircraft is cost (a new LSA still cost more than an older Cessna or Piper), range (pretty limited), useful load (given my size, pretty much myself and some fuel), and speed (being limited to under 120 kts, you don't get anywhere very fast).
Now I'm not sure just how remote your fishing spots are. If you are talking places with a fair size grass strip, a STOL equipped 172, or maybe a Van's RV would make a nice airplane for the job. If you are talking about a gravel bar on an Alaskan Stream, then I would be thinking Super Cub or the likes. And just my thinking, but the LSA's I've seen don't make great bush planes, rather underpowered, and just don't seem built as tough.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 9:39pm
olderndirt
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If you can afford the initial outlay, learning to fly in your own plane is much cheaper in the long run. All maintenance costs are, in essence, protecting YOUR investment, not a flight school's, so flight hour costs are basically fuel/lubricants and an instructor for the required dual. Hiring your own allows freedom to choose a person to whom you relate and is, quite possibly, an excellent teacher. Nothing more unnerving than someone who was a student him/herself a mere couple of hundred hours ago. Your plane becomes like any personal machine - it's your baby
and you'll make a point of learning its innards. This, in itself, will place you several rungs above the average pilot and could be a real asset when something goes bad.
THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER
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Reply #4 -
Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 9:49pm
Brett_Henderson
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The only way an LSA license begins to make sense, is if you plan to buy an LSA airplane... because LSAs for rent are very rare. Sure, there are a few schools that will have an LSA airplane, and rent it for training.. but insurance companies don't allow FBOs to rent ANY airplane to other than a holder of a PPL.. even if it is a LSA.
Our club is thinking about getting an LSA, for two reasons. 1) the lure of inexpensive training to bring in more members.. 2) An inexpensive aircraft for our current PPL holders to enjoy.
I've been closely associated with a few clubs since this LSA deal got started. Here's the reality. You aren't going to get signed off with many fewer (if any fewer) hours of training, than if you went a traditional PPL route. Most LSA students realize this, and quickly move into a traditional training plan... if for no other reason that they don't plan to buy an LSA.. so with just an LSA license, they'll only be able to fly with an instructor. And the reality sets in, that a few years down the road.. the cost difference (which aint much) in training, is peanuts compared to what flying costs in general.
I'd advise a traditional training program, even if you do plan on buying your own LSA.
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Reply #5 -
Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 10:17pm
Brett_Henderson
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EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
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olderndirt wrote
on Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 9:39pm:
If you can afford the initial outlay, learning to fly in your own plane is much cheaper in the long run. All maintenance costs are, in essence, protecting YOUR investment, not a flight school's, so flight hour costs are basically fuel/lubricants and an instructor for the required dual. Hiring your own allows freedom to choose a person to whom you relate and is, quite possibly, an excellent teacher. Nothing more unnerving than someone who was a student him/herself a mere couple of hundred hours ago. Your plane becomes like any personal machine - it's your baby
and you'll make a point of learning its innards. This, in itself, will place you several rungs above the average pilot and could be a real asset when something goes bad.
Buying your own airplane is usually not a less expensive way to fly (unless of course you have a couple partners).
The rule of thumb is 25 hours per month before you even break even, compared to renting .. and that's a lot of flying, month in, and month out.
Say for example it's an old C172... In excellent condition, with newer avionics and a low-time engine... that's about $70,000.
Just the interest on a loan (or having $70,000 in cash tied up if you pay cash), works out to about $350/month.
Tie-down and insurance is another $300/month.
That's $750/month, just to stand next to it and say, "lookie what I own"
An owners cost to operate; $40/hour for fuel (based on $5/gallon@8gph)l.. $10/hour for engine wear ($20,000 engine with a 2,000 hour TBO), and $15/hour for misc stuff and annuals...
That's $65/hour..
Compare renting at $110/hour...
Renting for 25 hours =
$2,420
Owning for 25 hours = $1625 + $750 =
$2,375
And even AFTER that break-even point, it's STILL $65/hour..
Now if you place a premium on knowing what you fly, and pride in owership, that of course is pricelss. But from a purely economical standpoint.. airplane ownership is a money pit..
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Reply #6 -
Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 10:56pm
beaky
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Whatever your flying goal, there is a point where you have to stop trying to nickel-and-dime your way to it, and just pay. If your projected budget is such that you think you can only afford to buy an LSA (they ain't cheap, BTW, unless you mean an old airplane that meets the LSA requirements and is in less-than-perfect condition)... then you can only afford to go as far as the Sport certificate... then pursue your private (which will mean that unless you're only going to use your PP privileges in your LSA, which doesn't make a lot of sense, you will have to get checked out in more-capable planes and rent like "everybody else")... somewhere along the line you're going to be challenged to meet the costs of it all, just like someone who buys a beat-up old Aztec because they'd like to rent a Baron someday.
And in general, regardless of how modest your plane and certificates are, predicting and managing the cost of flight training and ownership/operation of an aircraft is difficult. What little I've achieved myself has been the result of sacrifice, more than financial shrewdness. The best-laid plans, etc...and
owning
an airplane can
really
be an education in that concept... sometimes I'm glad I haven't gotten myself into
that
mess yet, much as I'd love to have my own plane.
The dollar amounts may vary, but there is one thing that remains the same in aviation, as an old-timer once told me:
"If you wait 'til you can afford it, you'll never do it."
In my roundabout way, what I'm saying is that if you see yourself in an LSA with a PPASEL, get an LSA that's worthy of a PPASEL, do your PPASEL in it, and exercise your PPASEL privileges in it. And be prepared to tighten your belt a little... or a lot.
On another note: there are some great LSAs that will serve decently in "back country" flying (although they're usually kit planes), but FWIW, if you are going to fly "in the bush", I think you'd be wise to have the full PP training.
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Reply #7 -
Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 11:09pm
Brett_Henderson
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EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB
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Quote:
but FWIW, if you are going to fly "in the bush", I think you'd be wise to have the full PP training
... and about 500 hours as PIC
after
that training
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Reply #8 -
Feb 23
rd
, 2010 at 10:36am
Titan_Bow
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virtual Cub owner
Longmont, CO
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Posts: 86
thanks for the advice guys. At this point, I am really just trying to get a grasp of what my goals really are and things I'd need to do to start working towards those goals. I have always been an aviation nut, but my career and adult life have caused me to drift away from it.
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Reply #9 -
Feb 23
rd
, 2010 at 10:42am
specter177
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If you do get an LSA, get something old, like a Champ or a Cub. That way it becomes financially attractive. Otherwise, you might as well get a used 172.
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Reply #10 -
Feb 23
rd
, 2010 at 10:44am
olderndirt
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Flying is PFM
Rochester, WA
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Brett_Henderson wrote
on Feb 22
nd
, 2010 at 10:17pm:
But from a purely economical standpoint.. airplane ownership is a money pit..
Once again, 'I'm hoist' on my own petard'. Any aviation advice I give is from an era that's gone. My first plane, in which I learned to fly, was a Cessna 140 for which I paid $2800. Saw that little jewel in Wasilla, AK last year with fresh paint and a bigger motor - worth lots more money
. Brett is correct - the financial outlay today, for a personal plane, isn't worth it. Really not familiar with the LSA program but gut reaction is 'what are we trying to accomplish here'? Reducing airspeed/horsepower/gross weight etc and requiring lesser flight standards does little to prevent that LSA from being one half of a mid-air. As you proceed through the ratings game, adding extra lines to your airman certificate, you realize how minimal the 'private' requirements were. How minimal for LSA?
THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER
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