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They all look the same! (Read 7137 times)
Dec 17th, 2009 at 7:15pm
SeanTK   Ex Member

 
Another future airliner is in development....
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/CO...

Here's the deal, I know the design is proven and works, but can't we have some company vary it up a little bit with the looks.
Airliners these days all look the same (to me), with the only sort of variety coming from DC-9/MD-80s with their rear mounted engines, and the increasingly rare DC-10 or MD-11 sighting.
Tube, two under-wing engines, same body width/length.....ugh....

Grin
 
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Reply #1 - Dec 17th, 2009 at 7:31pm

snippyfsxer   Offline
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Reply #2 - Dec 17th, 2009 at 10:56pm

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What? That just looks like a longer 737 with four small engines instead of two big ones. Wink

What you want is this: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/images/content/70059main_2003-81-01.jpg

That's different.
 

......
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Reply #3 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 2:32am

patchz   Offline
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specter177 wrote on Dec 17th, 2009 at 10:56pm:
What? That just looks like a longer 737 with four small engines instead of two big ones. Wink

What you want is this: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/images/content/70059main_2003-81-01.jpg

That's different.


Grin Grin Grin
...
 

...
If God intended aircraft engines to have horizontally opposed engines, Pratt and Whitney would have made them that way.
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Reply #4 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 4:14am

C   Offline
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Reply #5 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 6:04am

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Reply #6 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 6:44am

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I think after 40 years of large commercial airliner development they have found the correct balance of aerodynamics, reliability, and economy.

Sad to say that there probably won't be much change in this type of configuration for the foreseeable future.

What they didn't know or have back in the '60's and '70's led to many different types of design.

Just an observation.
 
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Reply #7 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 6:48am

C   Offline
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They haven't solved the asymmetric problem though. Smiley
 
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Reply #8 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 7:02am
NNNG   Ex Member

 
C wrote on Dec 18th, 2009 at 6:48am:
They haven't solved the asymmetric problem though. Smiley

What do you mean?
 
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Reply #9 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 7:43am

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I can tell you exactly why the blended wing concepts have not been pursued, not enough windows.  You would have most of the passengers sitting in the middle of that large aircraft, with only a few of the expected window seats.  Airlines wouldn't buy it.
 
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Reply #10 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 11:08am

C   Offline
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Quote:
C wrote on Dec 18th, 2009 at 6:48am:
They haven't solved the asymmetric problem though. Smiley

What do you mean?


Having the engines half way out along the wings make it fairly inefficient if one fails. Having them close to the centreline of the aeroplane, such as a DC-9, VC10, BAC 1-11 & 727, means it has a lot less of an effect should you lose an engine. In a 4 jet in the configuration of the A340, 747 and 707 type, lose two on one side, and compared to say the VC10/IL62, life could be very interesting, and lead to a very aching leg! Smiley
 
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Reply #11 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 11:45am
NNNG   Ex Member

 
I believe that's one of the reasons many light twin engined aircraft actually have worse safety records compared to single engined light aircraft. If one engine fails at low speed, the plane will probably crash as the rudder doesn't have enough authority to counteract the torque generated by asymmetric thrust. The solution was to build a physically asymmetrical aircraft, like the Scaled Composites Boomerang. This allows the engines to be spaced much closer together, with the CoG in between them, so an engine failure has only a small impact on flying qualities.

...

Airliners don't have this problem, however. Only a bigger rudder is required. I wonder if FBW in some aircraft automatically adjusts for an engine out...?



Also, on the flip side... if an engine disintegrates on the VC-10, for example, then it has the possibility of taking out the other engines. If it is anything like the MD-80 (and DC-9), a disintegrating engine is more likely to puncture the pressure vessel (causing rapid decompression, or worse), or injure a passenger (or kill - which has happened before) edit: Of course, the engines could be mounted behind the cabin, but that is likely to waste space and either reduce passenger count, or make the plane longer than it would otherwise need to be, adding weight. Also, wing mounted engines typically counter the bending forces generated by the wings, so more weight is needed with a tail-mounted design.... Lastly, tail mounted designs also need a way to transfer the "force" (for lack of a better word) from the engines to one of the main sources of drag... the wing, this adds even more weight. (and the problems with a tail-mounted design continue...)
« Last Edit: Dec 18th, 2009 at 12:48pm by N/A »  
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Reply #12 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 11:58am

C   Offline
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Quote:
Airliners don't have this problem, however. I wonder if FBW in some aircraft automatically adjusts for an engine out...?


I suspect in more modern types it does.


Quote:
Also, on the flip side... if an engine, for example, disintegrates on the VC-10, then it has the possibility of taking out the other engines. Also, on some aircraft like the MD-80, the engines are on the side of the passenger cabin, so a disintegrating engine can injure passengers (which has happened),


Yep, you're quite right. I the case of something like the VC10 or the IL62, a double engine failure would quite possibly be caused by a catastrophic failure of the adjacent engine. However, most engine shutdowns are relatively benign, and historically non-contained catastrophic failures are historically very rare.

As for the engines being near the pax, normally they are behind or adjacent to the rear bulkhead.
 
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Reply #13 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 12:42pm
NNNG   Ex Member

 
The aft (tail) mounted engine on the DC-10 and MD-11 cannot operate on suction (from the engine mounted boost pump) alone, but requires the tank mounted Jettison/Override pumps to be operating. The wing mounted engines on said aircraft can operate from suction alone.

Are all tail-mounted aircraft like this, or only the DC-10 / MD-11?

Thanks.
 
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Reply #14 - Dec 18th, 2009 at 6:57pm

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The 727 will operate without the tank pumps operating (except for starting) as long as the low pressure and high pressure engine pumps are operating.

Not a true suction feed, but as long as the engine pumps are running so will the engine.

I suspect the wing mounted engines on the jets you mention are mostly gravity-fed.
 
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