Simviation Forum - Werner Mölders

Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 2:58am

patchz Offline
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Werner Mölders (18 March 1913 – 22 November 1941) was a World War II German Luftwaffe pilot and the leading German fighter ace in the Spanish Civil War. Mölders became the first pilot in aviation history to claim 100 aerial victories—that is, 100 aerial combat encounters resulting in the destruction of the enemy aircraft, and was highly decorated for his achievements. He was instrumental in the development of new fighter tactics which led to the finger-four formation. He died in the crash of an airplane in which he was a passenger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_M%C3%B6lders

If God intended aircraft engines to have horizontally opposed engines, Pratt and Whitney would have made them that way.

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Reply #1 - Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 9:49am

expat Offline
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patchz wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 2:58am:

[color=#000000] He died in the crash of an airplane in which he was a passenger.

The irony was probably not lost on him in those last few seconds!

Matt

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Reply #2 - Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 3:38pm

H Offline
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I'm currently sanitizing and prepping old family photos for transport (many from the early 1900s, plus those of my own). Ever had dates pop out at you from this sort of a post?

26 February -- Mölders' 60th victory = birthdate of my paternal (and eldest) aunt and of one of my youngest maternal 1st cousins (both deceased)
18 March -- Mölders' birthdate = my mom's birthdate
13 April -- German destroyer christened "Mölders" = birthdate of my 2nd most ancient (paternal) 1st cousin
20 April -- Mölders' promotion/2nd JG 134 leader = my dad's birthdate
25 September -- Mölders & Galland's 40th victories = my eldest maternal aunt's birthdate (deceased but still survived by all younger and older siblings)
2 October -- Mölders' 51st victory = a paternal 1st cousin's birthdate
11 October -- Mölders' 43rd victory/gravesite rechristening = birthdates of two I've known: one I've recently mentioned in another SimV forum, the other a 'foster' family's daughter
22 November -- JG 51 christened "Mölders" = my youngest remaining (maternal) 1st cousin's birthdate
28 November -- Mölders' funeral = date my USAF discharge papers were prepared
1 December -- Mölders' 55th victory = a 'foster' family's granddaughter's birthdate (a daughter to the daughter mentioned above)

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Reply #3 - Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 4:29pm

Hagar Offline
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Quote:

Mölders became the first pilot in aviation history to claim 100 aerial victories—that is, 100 aerial combat encounters resulting in the destruction of the enemy aircraft,

That's quite a tally considering he was killed in November 1941. Have you ever wondered why the Luftwaffe fighter pilots in WWII claimed so many more victories than the top-scoring allied aces? Almost 100 Luftwaffe pilots were credited with 100 or more victories. List of World War II air aces

Erich Hartmann - Luftwaffe. 352 victories - highest scoring fighter pilot in the history of aerial warfare.
Hans-Joachim Marseille - Luftwaffe. 158 victories - All on the Western front. That's over 3 times as many as any Allied pilot.

Marmaduke Pattle - RAF. 51 victories. Top-scoring Allied pilot.
Richard Bong -USAAF. 40 victories. US ace of aces.
Johnnie Johnson - RAF. 38 victories. Second top-scoring RAF pilot.
Thomas McGuire - USAAF. 38 victories. The second highest scoring American ace.

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Reply #4 - Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 9:55pm

H Offline
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Hagar wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 4:29pm:

Have you ever wondered why the Luftwaffe fighter pilots in WWII claimed so many more victories than the top-scoring allied aces?

This doesn't really account for that great a difference but, at the start of WWII, most German pilots were already war-experienced, to some degree or another, and outnumbered experienced adversaries. Many counts may also have been from targets that weren't able to shoot back at the war's start. They really didn't start losing but a few of their experienced pilots until the Battle of Britain. On that note, your RAF had thinned out the number of targets a bit before the U.S. pilots joined the fray; the balance of numbers also quickly reversed drastically upon the U.S. entry, reducing the number of adversaries per Allied pilot.

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Reply #5 - Nov 23^rd, 2009 at 1:50pm

patchz Offline
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This brings to mind the old TV show, Laugh-In. I can never remember whether it was Henry Gibson or Arte Johnson, (Johnson, I think) wearing a German uniform and helmet and saying, "very interesting". Grin

If God intended aircraft engines to have horizontally opposed engines, Pratt and Whitney would have made them that way.

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Reply #6 - Dec 7^th, 2009 at 5:40pm

beaky Offline
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Hagar wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 4:29pm:

Have you ever wondered why the Luftwaffe fighter pilots in WWII claimed so many more victories than the top-scoring allied aces? Almost 100 Luftwaffe pilots were credited with 100 or more victories.

That's easy to answer: most of them were first trained in gliders. Wink

I'm not entirely joking- I think they just had a lot more hours, on the average, before being first sent into combat for the first time. You don't live long enough to be battle-seasoned if you don't have the skills to begin with, however many opportunities there might be.

More significantly, though, I think that it had a lot to do with the state of things in the first years of the war- the Luftwaffe was way ahead, initially, in terms of aircraft design, maintenance,tactics and training. They also used air power very effectively at first, damaging infrastructure and making it harder for those invaded to oppose them in the air.
And of course, their neighbors had not been plotting and building for years to conquer all of Europe with air power! There was nothing in place to effectively meet or counter this threat.

The tide was turned only when the same was done effectively to their war machine... but the Allied pilots certainly learned quickly enough when it was still a game of clashing aerial armies, as was the case in the BoB. Still amazes me what "the Few" were able to accomplish, considering the situation.

WWI was more evenly-matched from the beginning, and the figures show that:

http://www.wwiaviation.com/aces/aces.html

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Reply #7 - Dec 7^th, 2009 at 5:58pm

C Offline
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Hagar wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 4:29pm:

Quote:

Mölders became the first pilot in aviation history to claim 100 aerial victories—that is, 100 aerial combat encounters resulting in the destruction of the enemy aircraft,

That's quite a tally considering he was killed in November 1941. Have you ever wondered why the Luftwaffe fighter pilots in WWII claimed so many more victories than the top-scoring allied aces? Almost 100 Luftwaffe pilots were credited with 100 or more victories. List of World War II air aces

Erich Hartmann - Luftwaffe. 352 victories - highest scoring fighter pilot in the history of aerial warfare.
Hans-Joachim Marseille - Luftwaffe. 158 victories - All on the Western front. That's over 3 times as many as any Allied pilot.

I suspect several factors are in play:

a) the eastern front - more numerous victims available at closer range in great numbers.
b) vast terrain and space therefore making physical confirmation impossible.
c) duplicate claims - easily the most probable.
d) the Nazi propaganda machine - I suspect they weren't particularly picky.

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Reply #8 - Dec 8^th, 2009 at 3:48pm

patchz Offline
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C wrote on Dec 7^th, 2009 at 5:58pm:

Hagar wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2009 at 4:29pm:

Quote:

Mölders became the first pilot in aviation history to claim 100 aerial victories—that is, 100 aerial combat encounters resulting in the destruction of the enemy aircraft,

That's quite a tally considering he was killed in November 1941. Have you ever wondered why the Luftwaffe fighter pilots in WWII claimed so many more victories than the top-scoring allied aces? Almost 100 Luftwaffe pilots were credited with 100 or more victories. List of World War II air aces

Erich Hartmann - Luftwaffe. 352 victories - highest scoring fighter pilot in the history of aerial warfare.
Hans-Joachim Marseille - Luftwaffe. 158 victories - All on the Western front. That's over 3 times as many as any Allied pilot.

I suspect several factors are in play:

a) the eastern front - more numerous victims available at closer range in great numbers.
b) vast terrain and space therefore making physical confirmation impossible.
c) duplicate claims - easily the most probable.
d) the Nazi propaganda machine - I suspect they weren't particularly picky.

Sounds plauble to me.

If God intended aircraft engines to have horizontally opposed engines, Pratt and Whitney would have made them that way.

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Reply #9 - Dec 8^th, 2009 at 10:21pm

olderndirt Offline
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Regardless of participant nation criteria, when you get past five kills (ace) you've already separated yourself from your peer group. Some guys are born to it - others learn by doing but there's got to be that killer gene in the DNA. Some of the most unlikely prewar people went on to become WW2's most successful fighter pilots. Two of the nicest gents, Clarence Anderson and Chuck Yeager - both aces and other stuff. They were killers once - as were Bob Sanford Tuck and Peter Townsend.

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