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FSX and Runways...... (Read 817 times)
Jul 28
th
, 2009 at 4:35pm
Aiden327
Offline
Colonel
Hello!
Posts: 100
I have finally taken the leap into real time and real world weather flights. I have had some problems with the AI giving me near suicide approach clearance and runways. For example, I am flying from KJFK to KDCA in a CRJ-700. The weather at KDCA is 9 mile visibility and a 8 knot wind at 210. However there is also a severe thunderstorm warning and plenty of lightning and a ceiling below 6000.
Here is the problem... ATC makes me land runway 22 visual, wich is fine but they forgot that its almost impossible to approach the runway with out violating P-56 airspace unless you do a s curve around the airspace onto the runway. I would like to fly a LDA 19 or ILS 1 in these conditions because winds at 8knots is almost nothing to worry about but I must wait until I get Radar Contact as the default atc loves to use the phrase circle and land 22 no matter what approach I pick
. Here is the Rossyln LDA 19 approach plate wich gives a good view of the P-56 and runway 22 as-well as the runway lengths-
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0907/00443ROSSLYNLDA19.PDF
The second problem is runway 22 is very short and I take up almost all of the runway with reverse thrusters, spoilers and braking. The worst thing that happened was in the same conditions I got a runway 15 visual clearance which I have flown before but the ATIS did not prepare me for a soaking wet runway because it was not raining. So very short runway + wet condition and a 9 mile visibility and not enough fuel for a go-around(second go around) I am pretty sure the ATC killed me their. We took a swim in the river on the other side of the runway when the plane hydroplaned right off the runway. The plane also failed to rotate fast enough to attempt and emergency touch and go.
So I guess a few Questions emerge from all this. 1)How can a pilot prepare himself for a Short Field Visual Approach that requires heavy maneuvering(or else) in severe IFR flight conditions, and 2) What did I do wrong with the failed visual 15 approach? Should I have taken more fuel or filed for an alternate after the first go-around? KIAD was very close. I haven't crashed in a a very very long time so that was a wake up call to the introduction of weather
I also want to add that my weight by the time I get to the airport is about 65-63k which allows for a 128kias approach with 45 degree flaps and the CRJ-does not seem to have auto-brakes for some reason. FDC sets them but they never activate because the Plane apparently does not have them. On a side note I also am saving up for Radar Contact to hopefully resolve the runway issue and allow me to fly realistically by picking active runways by discretion.
Thanks for the great flight training forum, I have learned alot from reading the tutorials!
-Aiden
EDIT: I just found out that when I hit randomize on REX is selected Flooded runways for wet conditions. That is equivalent to a hurricane lol, no wonder I couldn't stop
. But that still dosn't change my question about what I did wrong.
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Last Edit: Jul 28
th
, 2009 at 5:35pm by Aiden327
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Reply #1 -
Jul 28
th
, 2009 at 9:33pm
Brett_Henderson
Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB
Gender:
Posts: 3593
I'm not gonna research CRJ700 specs.. I just know that
I
wouldn't try to land one on 5000 foot runways in anything but perfect weather and a dry runway
As for FSX ATC... I never use it. They vector you all over the place .. and don't always keep good seperation. Just "file" your own flight plan, and fly it like you'd expect ATC to vector you.
Question 1 answers itself.. you DON'T fly a visual approach into an IFR airport
Edit: I just studied that plate.. The last part of it IS to be flown visual, but you'll see at the bottom, that minimum ceilings are 1100 ...pretty close to VFR if you were doing closed traffic work
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Last Edit: Jul 28
th
, 2009 at 10:54pm by Brett_Henderson
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Reply #2 -
Jul 29
th
, 2009 at 2:36am
Aiden327
Offline
Colonel
Hello!
Posts: 100
Brett_Henderson wrote
on Jul 28
th
, 2009 at 9:33pm:
I'm not gonna research CRJ700 specs.. I just know that
I
wouldn't try to land one on 5000 foot runways in anything but perfect weather and a dry runway
As for FSX ATC... I never use it. They vector you all over the place .. and don't always keep good separation. Just "file" your own flight plan, and fly it like you'd expect ATC to vector you.
Question 1 answers itself.. you DON'T fly a visual approach into an IFR airport
Edit: I just studied that plate.. The last part of it IS to be flown visual, but you'll see at the bottom, that minimum ceilings are 1100 ...pretty close to VFR if you were doing closed traffic work
I noticed when listening to real world atc at KEWR a lot of the pilots actually prefer visual during the night. It must be a personal preference then because I prefer ILS when its available.
So far I am able to fly ILS, ILS cat II, LDA, LDA/DME, and GPS. Still trying to learn VOR, VOR/DME and NDB.
As for Visual, I will accept them because I don't want people to say I'm lazy but in real life the excuse for ILS would be safety.
As for the atc the vectors they give are mostly realistic and I end up in the same places as the real guys but the lack of changing runway at discretion, holding and alternates makes me want to call up Microsoft. The atc will give me any approach I want and ground doesn't seem to care as-long as I am detected leaving the runway lol. I am using real world flight plans for the COMAIR CRJ-900's that seem to be really good, they take me around the bottom of NJ with the JFK wavey DP and the flight time is less than an hour.
I guess then there's nothing I can do until I upgrade the ATC unless I ignore the circle to land, it feels empty and unrealistic without it. I don't use it for VFR though.
Thanks for the reply,
Aiden
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Reply #3 -
Jul 29
th
, 2009 at 8:14am
Brett_Henderson
Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB
Gender:
Posts: 3593
This might be redundant.. it sounds like you have a good understanding .. But I'll elaborate.
The LDA for runway 19 looks like a handful of an approach. I'll defer to your knowledge, as you've researched this.. but my gut instinct is that loaded CRJs would avoid the 5000' runways.. 01/19 would be what they use...
I just researched that airport.. according to Airnav, runway 04/22 is not used at all, "closed indefinately".
ANYway.. this appears to be a problematic, limited-use airport. Runway 01 has an ILS with 480' ceiling; 1/2-mile visibility minimum,, and 01 also has a CAT II with 165' ceiling and an RVR of 1600' (
might as well be 1/4 mile
) ... which are just fine. But 19 has what might as well be VFR minimums (
including 3 mile visibility
)
I got a feeling that winds strong enough to demand using 19; combined with IFR conditions at the airport.. leave it turning many flight away
Runways 15/33 don'y even have a "classic" precision approach. They'd have to rely on the GPS WAAS stuff (
I'm still learning about that.. one of our club Warriors has a WAAS-capable Garmin430
)
Now the obligatory lecture ..LOL
Finishing off a tense approach into 19 would be easy, after mastering NDB approaches, at minimums, lotsa wind,
NO GPS OR AUTOPILOT
.. in the trusty C172
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Reply #4 -
Jul 30
th
, 2009 at 12:17am
Aiden327
Offline
Colonel
Hello!
Posts: 100
Quote:
I just researched that airport.. according to Airnav, runway 04/22 is not used at all, "closed indefinitely".
That explains my problems lol... I think I need to find a better AFCAD then to close the runway
.
I was in DC visiting the memorials a week ago and I watched 737's, CRJ's and MD's flying one of the 3 Runway 19 approaches every 2-3 minutes for the few hours I was there. It also is the Countries National airport and I saw Marine 1 go by twice so I assume Air-force 1 and 2 use the airport as its just next to the white house
. I wonder how many times flights are delayed for Air Force 1
.
I agree with you that Rossylyn LDA is annoying but it has a glidslope. The good thing is the alternative LDA/DME uses another localizer and a 145 course instead of 147 so there's no left turn and 920ft minimums. I only use a nav/app hold for the localizer with manual throttles and pitch control. I have never seen a more complicated approach in all of my years of Sim flying
.
I will search for an AFCAD that closes the runway. I assume they closed it because of the airspace making it almost impossible to safe takeoffs and go around with fighter jets at Andrews air force base standing by if anything even dares to fly into it.
I was wondering if you have any tutorials on the NDB approaches? The one I read was overly complex and I am not a real pilot (yet) so I just barely mastered VOR navigation.
Aiden
Edit3: I used FSX planner and closed runway 4/22 ( but left the markings the same) and set Primary and Secondary Take off/landing to false, tested it by setting the winds in favor and I get runway 15 all the time. I just checked the rest of the runways and Runway 1/19 is set false for primary and secondary....What was Microsoft thinking when they made the BGL
. Clearly runway 15 is never used because I just flew into it with a Cessna and the pentagon is less than a few miles roughly in line with the runway
.
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Last Edit: Jul 30
th
, 2009 at 2:04am by Aiden327
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Reply #5 -
Jul 30
th
, 2009 at 7:10am
Brett_Henderson
Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB
Gender:
Posts: 3593
Yeah.. you've got a pretty good handle on this stuff
But that still won't stop me from saying.. "Would you turn someone loose in a jet.. flying complex approaches.. who'd never gotten his instrument ticked ? "
I know.. I know.. very few simmers go at it THAT realistically
It's just that if someone DOES show an interest in realism, I'm all about encouraging it. There are so many aspects to MSFS that translate well to real flying.. and one of them holds especially true. If you can takeoff in a C172.. poor visibility.. find your way over a couple hundred NM by instrument alone (NO GPS OR AUTOPILOT).. managing winds aloft... and then execute a published approach (BY THE BOOK)(especially NDB approaches)... manage those winds as you descend... fly a procedure turn.. hold good descent/airspeed.. fly a missed-approach and published hold..
ALL
while seeing nothing but an instrument panel.... you WILL be a better "pilot". And after perfecting those skills (regularly), many aspects to airplane handling become second nature.. and complex approaches in bigger, faster airplanes are less stressful. The fewer things you have to "think" about, the less overwhelming the cockpit becomes.
Did you read through NDB basics in the flight-training section, here at SimV ? Rather than discussing it here.. feel free to ask questions there
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Reply #6 -
Jul 31
st
, 2009 at 2:30am
Aiden327
Offline
Colonel
Hello!
Posts: 100
Quote:
"Would you turn someone loose in a jet.. flying complex approaches.. who'd never gotten his instrument ticked ? "
I probably wouldn't want to be in that situation until I have any flight training lol. My goal is to be as realistic as possible and also use realistic use of autopilot and procedures based on airline SOP's and actual manuals and training material I can find.
Quote:
It's just that if someone DOES show an interest in realism, I'm all about encouraging it. There are so many aspects to MSFS that translate well to real flying.. and one of them holds especially true. If you can takeoff in a C172.. poor visibility.. find your way over a couple hundred NM by instrument alone (NO GPS OR AUTOPILOT).. managing winds aloft... and then execute a published approach (BY THE BOOK)(especially NDB approaches)... manage those winds as you descend... fly a procedure turn.. hold good descent/airspeed.. fly a missed-approach and published hold.. ALL while seeing nothing but an instrument panel.... you WILL be a better "pilot". And after perfecting those skills (regularly), many aspects to airplane handling become second nature.. and complex approaches in bigger, faster airplanes are less stressful. The fewer things you have to "think" about, the less overwhelming the cockpit becomes. Cool
Believe it or not that is almost exactly my goal, I've got everything down expect for naviads, fuel and changing flight based on air temperature. I am a temporary hold on winds until I can get a Yoke and pedals and I have learned bad habits of using roll to correct my alignment. (my joystick is not very good at it).
I did read part of the NDB basics and I am able to fly towards them but flying approach publishes is a bit confusing. I will re-read on post some question in the appropriate thread before this thread gets even farther off-topic.
Quote:
I know.. I know.. very few simmers go at it THAT realistically
I guess you can consider me one of them, or on my way to be one of them. My goal is to get a pilots license and maybe have a career in it so I will do everything to make my flying as real as possible. I am even about to purchase the Captain Sim 757 because the lack of systems in the default airliners but am trying to learn navigation first so I don't overload when I must use the FMC for flight plans
.
Thank you for the help and replies, I will continue to read all the material here and I do have some questions in other topics
.
Aiden
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