That is most likely a ,  "Localizer Only" approach (no glideslope).

FSX represents them accurately, both in function, and location.

The best thing to do (just like you would for real), is to make sure that your flight plan includes research about destination and alternate airports..  at least check to see how they're equiped.. and ideally, you'll have a downloaded and printed approach plate handy

Hi Brett, thanks for the reply. So, in essence there are 2 different kinds of landing/approach aids--another interesting thing to have learned. Are there more than just the 2 different kinds? Does FSX let you know what you are going to run into when you look at the map? I get all my VOR, NDB and landing numbers from there, but I'm unsure exactly how much more info is on that map.
As far as altitude goes--well, there have been a few times when I somehow had to turn into a dive bomber       I have never seen approach plates in the sim, so if I want them, I need to go find 'em I guess huh?  Any reccomendations?   Thanks again.  Rick

RickG wrote on Jul 1^st, 2009 at 8:29pm:


Yeah.. many more than two..

When you go to the site Mobius provided (I use it for real world flying), and start poking around.. you'll see  MANY  types of approcahes, and their  plates..

Learning to use/read them is fun and useful.. 

@Mobius...  "The same only different"    ..  Yeah.. they're similar, in that they're non-precision.

The most common difference is that NDB approaches are almost always for NDBs  AT  the airport (though I have flown one where the NDB was an outer-marker).. where a VOR approach can use VOR's that are several miles from the airport.

@RickG (Mobius already knows this)(like myself,he's a real, instrument pilot)...  The simplest method for descent management, will be to have you fly to the NDB/VOR (when it's at the airport), and then fly a timed distance away from it (opposite runway heading), and then execute a specific set of turns, to reverse course (called procedure turns). Since you're a good pilot and can compensate for the wind.. this will leave you at a known distance/altitude from the runway.. SO, obviously, a nice, stabilized approach, and rate-of-descent will take you right down to the threshold  

(it takes lotsa practice)(and is inspiring me to start the instrument training thread)

As you start learning to read these plates, you'll see some pretty complex approaches..  stepped-down approaches referenced by DME, or even another VOR (by intersecting radials).. DME arcs... VOR-A.. all kinda neat stuff. All with the same goal... get you to the runway, when you cannot SEE it..  

Hi guys. Wow, there sure seems to be a lot of interesting info on that approach plates site--thanks. I just gave it a quick look, but was wondering if there's the same for Canada? I checked a whack of sites, but they weren't the same. Thanks again. Rick

Hi again guys. I have one question (so far lol)  I did a flight into KBLI, Bellingham Wash, runway 34, and approached from the south. I was using a vor which is like 13, I think it was, miles north of the airport. Now the only way I knew so was looking at the distances displayed on the radio stack, compared to the gps. I did not fly with gps, just used it to see the difference. So now, looking at the approach plate, it says to start descending from 3100 down to 2000at about 11.5 miles out. My distance indicator on the radio of course was further, so without using the gps, how would I have known the distance to the airport?  By the way, I did have a nice smooth descent--   Rick

Here is the VOR approach for runway 16R at KPAE.. This is a good choice, as it's relatively simple.. AND  there's also a VOR/DME for the same runway.. Once you get the hang of this, it'll be an easy transition to the more complex approach.. that even includes a DME arc  

Download this (from airnav.com) and study it..  We'll discuss it when you're ready  

RickG wrote on Jul 8^th, 2009 at 10:35am:


Ok.. I'm confused.. when you say you did the flight.. do you mean you shot  VOR 16R approach ?  several times ?  without understanding the inbound/outbound legs (320/140) and the procedure turn ?

That's not possible..



The initial approach fix (IAF)  IS  the VOR.. that's where the approach begins.. I was expecting your first question to be...

"How do I get from the MSA down to the IAF altitude ?"  

ANYway.. if you flew this approach.. you would have got yourself to the IAF, at or above 2000msl.. flown 320 for two minutes (descending down to 2000 if you weren't already there),, then you would have turned to 275 and flown for 1 minute.. then turned right 180 degrees to 095.. waiting for the VOR CDI to come back to center (OBS @140) and started your turn inbound to 140.. initiating a stabilzed descent, and then looking up for the runway at DH (1020msl).

Your inbound/outbound legs would be flown by VOR .. NOT by heading, so if there was any wind.. 320/140 would not have been your headings.. (this is where you get a feel for the wind)(and make adjustments to the procedure turn headings (275/095).

Did your "go-arounds" (missed approaches), take you to the hold as published ? (climb to 1700.. then climbing turn to 2000.. then to the VOR and hold)

How did you enter the hold ? (direct, parallel, teardrop)

Did you fly at least one lap around the hold ? (this is where wind management really comes into play) Flying holds is an instrument course in itself  

The point I'm making is.. I'm happy to help with this stuff.. but you gotta play fair  

Psssst..  no using the 16R ILS, either     

hmmmm.  Well it's mission NOT accomplished then huh?  Guess I didn't really understand quite what you had planned for me- .  Sorry. I am wondering tho if I am trying to do this but missing a step in the learning process. Are there other things to be learned before I start being able to do what you want?  Sorry to say the approach charts really don't make as much sense to me, as I'm sure they do to you.  Oh, and nope, I never dialed in the ILS.

Much as I hesitate to insert myself, I've got to say this.  Mr Henderson is trying to provide you with knowledge that would cost you serious bucks in a 'real' environment.  If you want to be an instrument pilot you must first be a fairly good VFR pilot so that basic aircraft handling comes easily.  With this mastered, there's still lots of book learning, approach plates being just one part of the picture.  Under the hood, you'll learn an instrument scan and settings that will put you where you want to be without too much fooling around.  It's not easy but it's very fulfilling and the precision you acquire flying instruments will make you a better VFR pilot.  Pay attention to Brett, he knows what he's talking about.

RickG wrote on Jul 12^th, 2009 at 10:26pm:

You're getting closer, you have the general idea.  You got the final approach phase correct by flying a heading of 140° to the airport.  The way you would do it instead of flying a bit north would be to fly directly to the VOR first, then fly 320° away from the VOR until you are far enough away that you can turn back to the airport and descend safely. The VOR is called the initial approach fix because it is the point that you fly to to start the approach.  It is the transition from your cruise phase of flight to the approach phase.  Most approaches have several initial approach fixes so you can fly an approach from different directions without having to fly all the way to the VOR, then out, then back again.

OK.. we're inbound heading (tracking) 120.. 50nm out at 7000msl  (homework is to tell me why 7000msl)..

We look at the plate for MSA (minimum safe altitude)..





You can see.. on our current track.. MSA within 25nm is 5700.. so we're good to go. As stated earlier.. ATC would normally vector you, and clear you for the approach.. so MSA wouldn't be a concern... For the sake of this exercise, we'll maintain MSA until 10nm out (normal perimeter for approaches).. and then as we fly to the IAF, and outbound, we'll be working our way down to the procedure turn altitude of 2000msl.

As we near the IAF (DME reference) we'll prepare to turn outbound (320). This opens up some neat, advanced instrument stuff. Luckily, our current course will make it a relatively easy turn outbound. Picture our dilema if we were fling in from the north. We'll get to that later..

Now we're executing perfectly controlled, descending turns (never exceeding standard rate, 'cause we've practiced SO much), and are about to cross the IAF. As we cross it (TO/FROM arrow flips) .. We quickly spin the OBS to 320 and track that radial for 2 minutes. We'll be nearing 2000msl by now.. we MUST stay above that until inbound..

After two minutes, we begin the procedure turn. This is how we reverse course in a precise and predictable way.. not to mention staying where ATC and other aircraft expect us to be... all the while maintaining 2000msl. Standard-rate turn to 275 (per the plate)(make a subtle adjustment for the wind), and fly for one minute. After one minute, begin a right-hand turn to aprox. 095, and spin the OBS to 140...

As the needle (CDI) begins to center, we're nearing our turn inbound. Once established on that radial, we can begin our descent. Decision height here is 1020msl. Since we have a DME, we'll use it. Time the descent as to NOT reach 1020 until 1.5nm out. Since this plate does NOT say "DME required", I'm kind of surprised that decision height is even referenced by DME. Maybe Mobius can elaborate..

Normally, any,  "do not go lower until here" steps on a descent, have reference points. Sometimes they're DME.. sometimes they're where another VOR radial intersects (you'd be using VOR 1 for that)... without step references.. it's safe to get down to the next altitude, even a bit early. On this approach, if I had no DME.. I'd probably accelerate my descent a bit, and then level off at decision height.

ANYway.. you continue the descent  (a nice, stabilzed, almost hand-off descent, because you've practiced this SO much) until decision height.. look up for a runway, and if you do not see it; get ready to fly a missed approach.  (next post)

Just for reference.. her's the whole flight / approach...

Yeah.. I learn something new, just about every plate I study  TOO 

Thanks for the  DH / MDA  clarification   

And yeah, it's supposed to be 080  (I fixed it)..  I had three versions of this approach running through my head as I was typing it..


In a round-about way.. you hit on something important.. there is a LOT left to pilot discretion.. but the prudent pilot doesn't deviate far from what's published.

(I can promise you that I've flown a VOR approach where  MY  procedure turn wasn't quite what's published    )

Yeah.. that line was arbitrary; in that it could be ANY course, so long as it was directly  TO  the station.

In reality, you'd have a flight all planned out and on file, so it wouldn't be so arbitrary.. and ATC would handle that aspect.

The hold is more than just a circle.. but we'll get into that later. The holding "lap" is also important, for the same reason you'd have to alter your direction in order to be clircling in the proper direction while holding(hold entries are intersting studies), it's how you'd get outbound (320) if your inbound course left too sharp a turn (like if you were coming in from the north).  But again.. ATC would handle that part. Worst case scenario; they  TELL you to fly straight to the VOR, and then use the hold to get turned outbound.

What concerns me though, is this lline:

Quote:


There is no "aiming".. If you were using the VOR to get TO the VOR, you'd know what radial you were tracking... it sounds like you were guessing. If you're having trouble using VORs, we can concentrate on that. Though, I can't imagine how you'd fly the inbound/outbound tracks without using the VOR  (were you doing it with with 1 mile visibility ?) (it's important that you cannot "cheat", by seeing the airport until you're about to land.. and  NO  GPS allowed..).  I get the feeling that you flew the approach, visually.. Or maybe it's just how you worded it. The trick is, that you get yourself to the VOR, and on the ground, by instruments alone.. no looking outside.. no movingmaps.. just you and your VOR

As for the 7000msl..  Yes, it was above MSA.. but I was hoping you'd tell me why 7000.. and not 6000, or 6500, or 7500  

If this works--- here's a pic of my attempt

While you've got this IFR frame of mind going..  I'll opine a bit  

Someone might ask, "Why bother flying  TO  the VOR, just to come back in ? " ... "Why not just fly straight in ?"

As Mobuis pointed out; so long as you're insdie the 10nm, and ON the final approach course (tracking 140), you "can"  just fly it straight in.

But ponder this.. without ATC vectors, and no DME; how would you know how far out you were ? That's the theory behind flying  TO  the VOR first. It's your reference point. If you know haw far you've flown outbound, you know how far out you are, after reversing course. Make sense ?

On that note.. it wouldn't surprise me if this plate had that special note;  ' NoPT'  (no procedure turn required).  It would read something like; "NoPT if DME equuiped".. because obviously, with a DME, you'd know how far out you were, and could time the descent accordingly.

Which segues us to my next point    There is a VOR/DME  approach for runway 16R  

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0907/00142VD16R.PDF

You can see that if you have a DME, you can come in from just about any direction... maintain a 9nm radius  (DME arc), as you fly around to the north, an so long as you're at 3000msl, you can just turn inbound  (else you'd have to fly the procedure turn, losing altitude, and execute something similar to the regular VOR approach).

See the  "3000 NoPT"  on the arcs ?

Also see that with a DME, you're given an altitude step-down (wich is also the final approach fix) at 1500msl... and most importantly, that with the extra precision of a DME; you're allowed down to 980msl  

Fly that approach a few times.. with and without using the arc..  

Ahhhh.. instrument turns (i.e.. at a VOR, or inbound).. and holds..  I'm gonna start other threads for these.