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I will I will I will (Read 1164 times)
Reply #15 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 3:04am

Hagar   Offline
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expat wrote on Jun 26th, 2009 at 1:15am:
The US seems to suffer from qualification inflation in just about every corner of employment. Burger flipping will require a three year university course before long Roll Eyes

LOL There's a lot of truth in that. Unfortunately it's not restricted to the US.
 

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Reply #16 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 7:24am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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It's the commitment thing.. showing that you can  take on something, and finish it. One of many methods for narrowing the field.. not to mention the evidence of intellect.. and a person no doubt leaves a university, better educated.

If you have 1000 people applying to you for a job... and that job itself requires a commitment to lots of technical training (training that you, the employer will be paying for); I think it's prudent to limit your investment risk, as the employer; to potential employees with a college degree.
 
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Reply #17 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 12:57pm

RitterKreuz   Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jun 26th, 2009 at 7:24am:
It's the commitment thing.. showing that you can  take on something, and finish it. One of many methods for narrowing the field.. not to mention the evidence of intellect.. and a person no doubt leaves a university, better educated.

If you have 1000 people applying to you for a job... and that job itself requires a commitment to lots of technical training (training that you, the employer will be paying for); I think it's prudent to limit your investment risk, as the employer; to potential employees with a college degree.



some truth to that... but on the other hand... you cannot get your private, instrument, multi, commercial, commercial multi, cfi, cfii, mei and atp in 24 months without some sort of commitment and intellect.

these airline interviewers know the difficulty and monetary strain of getting all your hours, and all the training to complete the multitude of ratings and licenses without the added expense and hassle of attending a 4 year degree program.

lets face it... even if you went to a nice flight school that DOESNT offer a degree and you completed all your training for all your ratings and licenses your still looking at a price tag in the neighborhood of $50K-100K.

tack on a degree... and Whammo you are well into debt for most of your professional life... at least on any sort of pilot salary.

while i think a degree is very important for expanding your options for any one of the 3 or 4 times in your professional career you will be laid off or furloughed or otherwise without work in this industry... its not essential to getting an airline job (though it helps)

even without a degree i received a job offer everywhere i interviewed... (im close to finishing it even at a snails pace)

the good news is - generally airline pilots are placed in charge of interviewing and hiring other airline pilots.

with a good personal interview, a thorough technical interview, a written exam, and a simulator ride portion of the interview... they are able to determine whether or not you would make a good "investment".

now... if CEO/managment types were placed in charge of interviews you would have an extreme pilot shortage as there are very few pilots out there with all their licenses and ratings who also happen to have a Masters degree in Business Management.

Im with Brett... grab an old 172, get a pizza delivery job or something similar... instruct when the opportunity comes and do your pizza delivery job on the side (or vice versa)

just keep in mind... most professional pilots i know say they would "beat their kid black and blue if he said he wanted to be a professional pilot just like daddy."
 
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Reply #18 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 1:38pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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It's weird how these things go in cycles..  I'm old enough to remember that at 20 years old.. airline piloting was out of the question for me. We were still on the edge of the era where  ONLY ex-military pilots need even apply... and those without perfect, uncorrected vision could forget about it too.

Then, not all that long ago.. 1200 hours and a multi-engine rating all by itself got your foot in the door.

The booming economy of the 80s and 90s had many airlines competing for both passengers and pilots.. wasn't there even a pilot shortage for a while ?

The same boom/bust that converted airports from glamorous places where adventures began; into giant bus depots with people sleeping on floors.. has turned the once glamorous and prestigious job as an airline pilot, into that of an over-worked, under-paid robot.

You can literally drop out of high school.. take a job delivering pizza.. stick with it and work your way into management, and have a MUCH more financially satisfying career, by age 30, than you could flying jets.

The big problem now, is that airlines KNOW that most aspiring pilots will work for nothing, just to be flying ...
 
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Reply #19 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 2:06pm

RitterKreuz   Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jun 26th, 2009 at 1:38pm:
Then, not all that long ago.. 1200 hours and a multi-engine rating all by itself got your foot in the door.


Sadly... one new hire of ours had about 300 hours total time on the date he entered training.  Shocked

Brett_Henderson wrote on Jun 26th, 2009 at 1:38pm:
The booming economy of the 80s and 90s had many airlines competing for both passengers and pilots.. wasn't there even a pilot shortage for a while ?


in the mid 90's when i got into aviation, while i was working on my private... individuals who were preparing to graduate already had job offers... before they even had all the certificates. so yeah... i guess that translates to a shortage - or just a big boom

Brett_Henderson wrote on Jun 26th, 2009 at 1:38pm:
has turned the once glamorous and prestigious job as an airline pilot, into that of an over-worked, under-paid robot.


so right  Embarrassed

Brett_Henderson wrote on Jun 26th, 2009 at 1:38pm:
The big problem now, is that airlines KNOW that most aspiring pilots will work for nothing, just to be flying ...


they are the predators of youthful aspirations.  Angry

look at any flying magazine flight school ad - all targeting 18-20 year old kids... largely women or minorities.

this bunch of naive diaper wearers have no idea.  Cry
 
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Reply #20 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 2:16pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
they are the predators of youthful aspirations. 

look at any flying magazine flight school ad - all targeting 18-20 year old kids... largely women or minorities.

this bunch of naive diaper wearers have no idea. 


Yeah.. I was talking about that the other day, with my instrument instructor (now flying piston twins for mapping photography)..

This isn't racial or political.. just a fact that these "schools" know that those groups can get grants and loans more readily.. they'll put the kids into debt, and not blink.
 
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Reply #21 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 10:32pm

MIKE JG   Offline
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I would love to sit here and disagree with everything that these two just said about the current state of the profession. 

Problem is that they are spot on and I couldn't have said it better myself.  It is really a shame what the job has become.

If you are going to get into it these days, make sure you know what you are getting yourself into.
 

-Mike G.

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Reply #22 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 11:53am

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I get the picture. I do. I've been educated on how hard it is becoming an airline pilot, especially with the struggling economy and everything else.. I dont care if I live in a tent for a few years, I will become an airline pilot. I know it will be hard, lets face it I don't come from the wealthiest family... I live in a normal suburban home in New Jersey.... but I will  become a pilot, no matter what it takes.
 
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Reply #23 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 5:46pm

MIKE JG   Offline
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Jersey the problem with this "I will no matter the cost" attitude is that this is directly responsible for bringing the profession to the point that it's at these days.

Quote:
I don't care if I have to live in a tent for a few years.


This is exactly what airline management is counting on.  Then they can pay you next to nothing and make you work more hours for less pay.  The next generation comes along and now their pay is less than that of a guy flipping burgers at a fast food joint, all because someone was willing to "do whatever it takes" to get the job.  

Someone HAS to stand up for the profession some day and say "no" to the idea of doing whatever it takes to make it.  Instead upcoming pilots need to realize that they are highly skilled individuals who have invested a great deal of time and money honing their skills and they WILL NOT work for poverty level wages just to fly a plane for a living.

Until this happens, nothing will change.  

I do not wish to rain on anyone's parade so I will make no further comment on this topic, it's been beaten to death on pilot forums for years now.  I just ask that you seriously reconsider your "living in a tent" idea before you dive right in.
 

-Mike G.

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Reply #24 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 8:09pm

RitterKreuz   Offline
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go to school to be a lawyer or doctor or some other profession.

buy yourself a small plane and fly when you want, on your terms.

that's the best advice i could give anyone looking to go into professional aviation.
 
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Reply #25 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 1:10am

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I was exactly in the same situation a couple of years ago. I Said "I will I will I will."

Now I won't. Or at least won't for some time. When you choose a career, everybody says: "Do what you want", but I think aviation is the exception.

Why did I decide not to become an airline pilot? With a lot of research I discovered it is not what I thought it was. Yes, you enjoy the view, it feels great, but on the economy side, you will be much worse than with another career, and you will have put a lot of effort (personal and economic) for something that doesn't pay well at all. The facts BNL2001 and RitterKreuz mentioned are true. Sad

I'm studying Audiovisual Communications now at Universidad de Lima. It is my second passion (discovered it last year, just like I discovered aviation 3 years ago), and love it as well. It was a VERY tough decision to make, but I hope I made it right.

I'm not saying that deciding to study aviation now is definitely a bad choice, considering I love aviation. You just have to stablish priorities.

Best of luck, mate! Smiley

Alonso
 

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Reply #26 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 7:48am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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I'm feeling retrospective   Cheesy (grant me a little political, creative license, Mods)

Nobody is certain how these things happen, exactly..  What has happened to piloting, is a good microcosm of what has happened (is happening) to our culture and society. Pride, independence, self-sufficiency, character, big-picture/long-term thinking and integrity are becoming less and less important. Those are values that require a sort of "teaching"... as in they're passed from one generation to the next.

Of course, the current economy plays a role in what is happeneing to aviation as a career.., but its state (and our ability to recover) are also victims to this decline. The main reason that we were able to recover from the Great Depression; is that as a people, we proud and felt priviledged to live with such freedom and opportunity. Patriotism and civics were core parts of public education.. long-since replaced by new-age gobbly-goop. Politicians use to inspire with orations that included calls for us to, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country".. whereas today's politicians get elected (and re-elected), by convincing everyone to expect the government to take care of them, literally.

I digress....

ANYway.. the revered airline pilot, is much like the doctor. Society wanted, and even needed them to be bigger-than-life entities. Some of the reasons are obvious... we literally place our lives in their hands.. but the other reasons are more subtle. As important as the primary skills might be, we all need to feel that there's even more to it. We need(ed) to place blind trust in these men. Somewhere along the line, seeing a flight crew walk through an airport as something awe-inspiring; fell the way of the doctor's house-call. Somehow, through all of this, doctors became clinic staffers, and pilots became bus drivers...  and teachers went from proud stewards who guided even the under-achievers through a public education, to babby-sitters, happy if 1/2 their charge end up able to read.

My point ?   Maybe it's not all bad to chase the piloting dream. The other careers mentioned here aren't showing a much brighter future. Doctor-ing is headed toward being a government job.. and with the government running everything, the need for skilled lawyers diminishes. Heck, if the economy keeps spiraling downward, even the airlines might end up as government entities.. and nobody will be able to afford air travel, anyway...

BE BOLD..chase that dream  (while you still can), we need Captain Sullys , more than ever  Cool


 
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Reply #27 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 4:41pm

Jersey Flyer   Offline
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If change is what we need, than change is what I will give. Right now, the pit of my stomach continues to churn, and I want to imagine down the road, me being broke, worrying about my money problems while being so busy with work I won't have time for anything else in life.. Its easy for me right now to sit here infront of my desktop computer at age 16 and think that. As I stated in my first post, I will do what ever it takes.

If this industry needs change, it only takes one person. It takes one person with a voice, and a dream. Take a look at Mr. Barack Obama. He achieved his goal. He may not be the most loved guy out there, but he grew up broke with no parents, and now he's running one of the most power nations in the world. Look at the United States Government before he took office. Most people would agree that the government was some what corrupt during the bush administration, but he still persued his dream and he did not settle for anything less.

I am referring to him because he has my respect to the fullest. All of this information is new to me, information of how unsatisfying it may be to become a pilot. I will be entering the workforce of Aviation in the near coming years... If we need to change the way this process works in order for the better of the future.. then I will work my hardest and try my absolute best to make it as easy and convienient as possible for future pilots like me to live.

I will never fully understand what its like to live on a Pilot's Salary untill I actually LIVE on it, and from there I am sure I will know what I want to do. Thank you all for your information, everyone has been really usefull, and I do give you the credit to say "I told you so" if I post a question asking for money to buy bread and water 10 years from now. Thank you all.
 
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Reply #28 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 6:55pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Just food for thought.. an aspiring airline pilot might want to research the effects that the current administration's energy policies will have on his future..

(I'll give ya a hint.. it aint good)
 
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Reply #29 - Jun 30th, 2009 at 12:07am

RitterKreuz   Offline
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Jersey Flyer wrote on Jun 29th, 2009 at 4:41pm:
I will never fully understand what its like to live on a Pilot's Salary untill I actually LIVE on it


Whats the difference between a professional pilot and a pizza?
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a pizza can feed a family of four.  Embarrassed

here is a sample budget.

Monthly Rent: $650
Monthly Electric: $100
Monthly Fuel: $180
Monthly Car payment: $330
Monthly Insurance: $100
Monthly Groceries (single guy): $180
Misc expenses: $200

Total Monthly Expenses: $1,740.00

Monthly income: $1791.66

Difference: +$51.66 (better be REALLY frugal)

***average for a regional airline pilot for the first 3 - 5 years

what most guys do to reduce living expenses - get a "crash pad" with 7 or 8 other pilots. sometimes you will be the only one there... other times you will be there with all 8 - but hey - your rent is only like $80!!  Cheesy
 
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