Simviation Forum - B2 Supersonic??

May 13^th, 2009 at 10:26am

expat Offline
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Is this real or a good wind up. I was under the impression that the B2 was not supersonic. Even the Northrop Grumman website has it listed as hight end subsonic??

For real?

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Reply #1 - May 13^th, 2009 at 10:45am

Hagar Offline
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That article contradicts itself.

This is the headline; Stealth Bomber Snapped At The Sound Barrier

This is what it says in the actual report; The B-2, officially known as the Spirit Bomber, has been captured on camera reaching high subsonic speed

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Reply #2 - May 13^th, 2009 at 11:02am

expat Offline
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Hagar wrote on May 13^th, 2009 at 10:45am:

That article contradicts itself.

This is the headline; Stealth Bomber Snapped At The Sound Barrier

This is what it says in the actual report; The B-2, officially known as the Spirit Bomber, has been captured on camera reaching high subsonic speed

RTFQ

Still typical Sky reporting, the headline says one thing and the story something else Roll Eyes

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Reply #3 - May 13^th, 2009 at 2:14pm

The Ruptured Duck Offline
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Image looks a bit altered; at least the shockwave cloud doesn't look real.

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Reply #4 - May 13^th, 2009 at 2:57pm

Hagar Offline
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expat wrote on May 13^th, 2009 at 11:02am:

Hagar wrote on May 13^th, 2009 at 10:45am:

That article contradicts itself.

This is the headline; Stealth Bomber Snapped At The Sound Barrier

This is what it says in the actual report; The B-2, officially known as the Spirit Bomber, has been captured on camera reaching high subsonic speed

RTFQ

I read the fuc*ing question carefully & my reply was relevant. Tongue

The article does not state that the B-2 is supersonic. A lot of 50s jet fighters like the Hunter & F-86 were subsonlic but could exceed Mach 1 in a shallow dive.

I have no idea if the photo is genuine. If it was released by the US military as claimed I assume that it is.

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Reply #5 - May 13^th, 2009 at 4:43pm

Mobius Offline
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You can get a cloud like that at high subsonic speeds. The cloud in the picture is just from to the air flow around it speeding up and lowering the pressure which causes the condensation. Like here:

http://users.skynet.be/aerosite/P2_F18_extreme_swiss.jpg

Here's another picture of the same effect:

http://wilk4.com/misc/b2_ocean.jpg

Notice how in both pictures the cloud on top is larger because of the lower pressure on top than on the bottom, which creates the lift.

If it were going supersonic and that were creating the cloud, you would probably see the wavefronts from the shockwave as that's where the lowest pressure is, like in this picture:

http://www.billgoss.com/new/images/photos/breaking_soundbarrier.jpg

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Reply #6 - May 14^th, 2009 at 3:40am

Isak922 Offline
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The effect shown in that picture is the easiest indicator that the aircraft is ABOUT to break the sound barrier. It isn't created by actually passing Mach 1.0, but in certain conditions the aircraft will build up condensation on the wings that has a varying visibility depending on weather conditions and current stresses on the aircraft.

I've seen pictures of 747-400's with condensation "clouds" like that on the wings.

Here's the Wikipedia article on it, for a basic idea of what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prandtl-Glauert_Singularity

On to the topic itself; The B-2A Spirit could very well be a Supersonic aircraft. The official statement is that it's "High Subsonic". On the other hand, you have to remember that this is the United States Military's most expensive and advanced aircraft operating. I'm sure it has MANY secrets we don't know about; and honestly wouldn't be surprised if they could push Mach 1. How high above it? Probably not much, considering the air-frame... But it honestly wouldn't surprise me to see a declassified document stating a speed above that.

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Reply #7 - May 15^th, 2009 at 5:08am

flavio Offline
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my 2 cents:

there were reports of mustangs and such breaking / almost breaking the sound barrier in world war II when they went into dives.

All that stealth would have to do is keep a nice descent rate at high power and im sure it wouldnt be fare fetched at all.

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Reply #8 - May 15^th, 2009 at 4:05pm

Isak922 Offline
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flavio wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 5:08am:

my 2 cents:

there were reports of mustangs and such breaking / almost breaking the sound barrier in world war II when they went into dives.

All that stealth would have to do is keep a nice descent rate at high power and im sure it wouldnt be fare fetched at all.

P-51's breaking the sound barrier? Not that I've ever heard.

The F-86 did it very rarely in dives. Never officially, though.

One of the first combat ready aircraft to commonly break Mach 1.0 would probably be the F-100 Super Sabre. Along with the MiG-19 and MiG-21.

Before that era of aircraft, the planes couldn't take the stress and were torn to pieces or rendered uncontrollable. The MiG-17, for example, would lose control and thus was limited to around M0.93 or so.

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Reply #9 - May 15^th, 2009 at 4:45pm

Hagar Offline
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Isak922 wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 4:05pm:

flavio wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 5:08am:

my 2 cents:

there were reports of mustangs and such breaking / almost breaking the sound barrier in world war II when they went into dives.

All that stealth would have to do is keep a nice descent rate at high power and im sure it wouldnt be fare fetched at all.

P-51's breaking the sound barrier? Not that I've ever heard.

The F-86 did it very rarely in dives. Never officially, though.

One of the first combat ready aircraft to commonly break Mach 1.0 would probably be the F-100 Super Sabre. Along with the MiG-19 and MiG-21.

Before that era of aircraft, the planes couldn't take the stress and were torn to pieces or rendered uncontrollable. The MiG-17, for example, would lose control and thus was limited to around M0.93 or so.

I believe the F-86 was the first jet aircraft to officially break the "Sound Barrier" in a dive. On May 18, 1953 Jackie Cochrane was the first woman to go supersonic in a Canadair F-86. Her wingman was Chuck Yeager. Other subsonic aircraft of the era did this on a regular basis including at air displays. The test pilots displaying at the annual Farnborough Air Show in the 1950s competed with each other to produce the most satisfying sonic booms. I can confirm this as I was there & heard it with my own ears. In August 1959 I broke the sound barrier twice in a Hawker Hunter T.7 trainer.

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Reply #10 - May 15^th, 2009 at 4:49pm

DaveSims Offline
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Prop driven aircraft have the problem that the propeller, due to its spinning, is moving considerably faster than the aircraft, which would then break the sound barrier first. The shockwave would tear the engine from its mounts.

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Reply #11 - May 15^th, 2009 at 4:49pm

scalper_old Offline
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Chuck Yeager sorry his named was mentiond did anyone try his flight sim back in the day I had it for the Amiga?

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Reply #12 - May 15^th, 2009 at 5:22pm

flavio Offline
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Isak922 wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 4:05pm:

flavio wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 5:08am:

my 2 cents:

there were reports of mustangs and such breaking / almost breaking the sound barrier in world war II when they went into dives.

All that stealth would have to do is keep a nice descent rate at high power and im sure it wouldnt be fare fetched at all.

P-51's breaking the sound barrier? Not that I've ever heard.

The F-86 did it very rarely in dives. Never officially, though.

One of the first combat ready aircraft to commonly break Mach 1.0 would probably be the F-100 Super Sabre. Along with the MiG-19 and MiG-21.

Before that era of aircraft, the planes couldn't take the stress and were torn to pieces or rendered uncontrollable. The MiG-17, for example, would lose control and thus was limited to around M0.93 or so.

You guys are probably right. Im just working with pilot hangar talk from my local airport here lol. I dont think they broke hte barrier, they just got mighty close. I dont think that B-2 photo is messed with.

Oh and since Yeager was mentioned, i just got the Chuck Yeager Award at my Civil Air Patrol Squadron for Aerospace Education (I took a 100 question exam, not too bad)

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Reply #13 - May 15^th, 2009 at 9:10pm

Isak922 Offline
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Hagar wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 4:45pm:

Isak922 wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 4:05pm:

flavio wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 5:08am:

my 2 cents:

there were reports of mustangs and such breaking / almost breaking the sound barrier in world war II when they went into dives.

All that stealth would have to do is keep a nice descent rate at high power and im sure it wouldnt be fare fetched at all.

P-51's breaking the sound barrier? Not that I've ever heard.

The F-86 did it very rarely in dives. Never officially, though.

One of the first combat ready aircraft to commonly break Mach 1.0 would probably be the F-100 Super Sabre. Along with the MiG-19 and MiG-21.

Before that era of aircraft, the planes couldn't take the stress and were torn to pieces or rendered uncontrollable. The MiG-17, for example, would lose control and thus was limited to around M0.93 or so.

I believe the F-86 was the first jet aircraft to officially break the "Sound Barrier" in a dive. On May 18, 1953 Jackie Cochrane was the first woman to go supersonic in a Canadair F-86. Her wingman was Chuck Yeager. Other subsonic aircraft of the era did this on a regular basis including at air displays. The test pilots displaying at the annual Farnborough Air Show in the 1950s competed with each other to produce the most satisfying sonic booms. I can confirm this as I was there & heard it with my own ears. In August 1959 I broke the sound barrier twice in a Hawker Hunter T.7 trainer.

A lot of Korean War era aircraft could break the sound-barrier in a dive, this is true. Not many could do it in level flight, or while climbing. This "feature" became very common during Vietnam, however.

I wish I was born in earlier years... Don't get to hear too many sonic booms anymore unless you live near a military base Cry

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Reply #14 - May 16^th, 2009 at 3:49am

Hagar Offline
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Isak922 wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 9:10pm:

Hagar wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 4:45pm:

Isak922 wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 4:05pm:

flavio wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 5:08am:

my 2 cents:

there were reports of mustangs and such breaking / almost breaking the sound barrier in world war II when they went into dives.

All that stealth would have to do is keep a nice descent rate at high power and im sure it wouldnt be fare fetched at all.

P-51's breaking the sound barrier? Not that I've ever heard.

The F-86 did it very rarely in dives. Never officially, though.

One of the first combat ready aircraft to commonly break Mach 1.0 would probably be the F-100 Super Sabre. Along with the MiG-19 and MiG-21.

Before that era of aircraft, the planes couldn't take the stress and were torn to pieces or rendered uncontrollable. The MiG-17, for example, would lose control and thus was limited to around M0.93 or so.

I believe the F-86 was the first jet aircraft to officially break the "Sound Barrier" in a dive. On May 18, 1953 Jackie Cochrane was the first woman to go supersonic in a Canadair F-86. Her wingman was Chuck Yeager. Other subsonic aircraft of the era did this on a regular basis including at air displays. The test pilots displaying at the annual Farnborough Air Show in the 1950s competed with each other to produce the most satisfying sonic booms. I can confirm this as I was there & heard it with my own ears. In August 1959 I broke the sound barrier twice in a Hawker Hunter T.7 trainer.

A lot of Korean War era aircraft could break the sound-barrier in a dive, this is true. Not many could do it in level flight, or while climbing. This "feature" became very common during Vietnam, however.

I wish I was born in earlier years... Don't get to hear too many sonic booms anymore unless you live near a military base Cry

I was just pointing out that some 1950s 'subsonic' jet fighters were perfectly capable of breaking the sound barrier in a dive. It's true that there were accidents but this was done on a regular basis. There is no reason why the B-2 cannot do the same.

I believe the first jet aircraft in regular service to be capable of exceeding Mach 1 in level flight was the F-100 Super Sabre. The F-100 served with the USAF from 1954 to 1971 and with the Air National Guard (ANG) until 1979.

PS. Sonic booms were a regular occurrence when I was young. Supersonic flight has been banned over mainland Britain for many years.

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