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May 1st, 2009 at 9:41pm

skoker   Offline
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My mom finally said I am allowed to go and get my pilots licence over the summer!  As you can expect many questions have arose that need to be answered.  What do I need to get to get a job with the airlines?  I will eventually be getting up to my local airport (KBUF) and getting my licence with Prior Aviation.  I also want to know how much this would cost and how long it takes to get something like a multi engine licence.
 


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Reply #1 - May 1st, 2009 at 10:22pm

The Ruptured Duck   Offline
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Don't freak, but its not cheap.

In 2006 I got my private, that is flying for fun for just under $6,500.  That was at rates around $100/hour for a 172SP.  A student who recieved his liscense last summer paid $10,000 for the same certificate.

I would find the hourly rate of their training aircraft, multiply it by 40 (minimum number of hours required for p.p.l.)  The next step in training is earning an instrument rating, which is a minimum of another 40 hours.  After that it is 250 hours (someone correct me if I'm wrong) for Commercial Certificate.  That means you can get paid to fly, but not to "fly for hire" like a charter pilot.  However It is possible to get a flying job like right seat regional airline or medevac.  One of my co-workers had 600 hours I believe to get a right seat job flying a King Air.  The next requirement would be CFI, which could help build time.  After that it is Airline Transport Pilot Certificate, which is 1200 hours.  You should also take into account that not everyone is ready to recieve their certificate at the minimum number of hours and many people take longer.

If you plan on going for it, go all out, don't spread out your training.  I recieved my certificate in 6 months, and that was with me flying 2-3 days a week before school.  In that June I didn't do much flying because of work and bad weather, and it felt like starting over when I started flying again!  To ensure I didn't spread out too much I took out a loan to pay for it (which I just paid off btw!)

Weather is another consideration, if you are in Buffalo, you might go 3 weeks of unsuitable weather for flying in the winter.  Here Fall is nice, winter is mild and even better, spring is spotty with storms, and summer is miserable with heat.

Minimum time for a multi-engine rating is 10 hours of instruction.  Most companies prefer as much multi engine time as possible.

 

"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing" -Ben Franklin&&&&"Man must rise above the Earth to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only thus will he fully understand the world in which he lives." - Socrates&&&&" Flying is a religion. A religion that asymilates all who get a taste of it." - Me&&&&"Make the most out of yourself, for that is all there is of you"- Ralf Waldo Emerson&&
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Reply #2 - May 1st, 2009 at 10:27pm

The Ruptured Duck   Offline
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If you want more info, I would take a trip and go talk to one of their flight instructors
 

"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing" -Ben Franklin&&&&"Man must rise above the Earth to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only thus will he fully understand the world in which he lives." - Socrates&&&&" Flying is a religion. A religion that asymilates all who get a taste of it." - Me&&&&"Make the most out of yourself, for that is all there is of you"- Ralf Waldo Emerson&&
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Reply #3 - May 2nd, 2009 at 1:31pm

beaky   Offline
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That's great news! But don't expect to bang out the PPASEL in a summer, even if you are free to fly every day, and have the money. Especially with the weather in your area, as was pointed out.

Part of becoming a pilot is learning to deal with delays and disappointment. Grin  

The average for the PPASEL is about a year, although there are exceptions, of course.

The road to the ATP, and a job using it, can be long and arduous (and expensive!!!), and the prize is really only worth the trouble if that's what you really, really want to do (not if you want to make a lot of money, or fly the coolest planes on the coolest routes).  You have to want it bad enough to not care if you are heavily in debt for years, living out of a suitcase, and constantly in danger of suddenly losing your job.  Every airline pilot I've talked to about this tells me the same thing: the reason they went for it and stuck with it is because they just love the flying. I know a few who had to give up even though they loved the flying... it can be a hard life.

But I'm not trying to discourage you, just help you choose the best goals. Remember also that there are plenty of flying jobs other than the airlines, like corporate, charter, fractional-ownership fleets, etc.

Who knows? Somewhere along the line you may decide you really want to be a career instructor, or you can't get enough of flying a jump plane at a busy skydiving school. There's always a demand for pilots for those "lesser" jobs, even though they don't always pay less than an entry-level airline job, because for most pilots, everything other than airline flying is just a way to get paid to build hours for a while. A pilot who's willing to "settle" might be treated very well, especially an instructor who wants to stick around.

BTW... despite the fact that having your instrument ticket  would make you employable for a greater range of jobs, it's not a requirement for the commercial, and there are flying jobs that don't require the instrument rating... some of them good time-builders.

Financing all this with loans is a pretty common option, especially after the PP. Multi training is quite expensive. Turbine training time even more so.  I think most people nowadays don't get to an airline seat without a substantial debt, which can be hard to pay off, given the typical entry-level pay.

But for now, there are easier ways to shave cost:

For starters, don't just jump at the first school, shop around. The fanciest flight school is not necessarily the best- you can get excellent training without all the window dressing or brand-new aircraft. I don't think any commercial operator or airline is going to care if you got your PP with instructors wearing uniforms or in a brand-new airplane. there's a limit, of course- even a more "budgt" school should be "vetted" first by you... ask around, make sure they're reputable.

Look at your "commuting" costs to and from the training airport as a factor. It adds up.

If possible, pay for your time in advance, in blocks. Most schools offer a discount if you buy time in blocks. But make sure it's refundable if you have to stop for some reason... like for example you come to the airport for your lesson and the school has vanished. Grin

Another way to save money on the primary training is to always remember that they are working for you, not the other way around. Ask questions, be well-versed on what is required of you, don't be passive about equipment problems, scheduling screwups, unnecessary review due to instructor turnover, etc. This could also save you calendar time in reaching your goal.
 

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Reply #4 - May 2nd, 2009 at 4:35pm

The Ruptured Duck   Offline
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Well said.

I forgot to mention the possibility of joining a flying club.  I know its more realistic here in the air capitol with Cessna, Beech, and Boeing/spirit all having employee clubs, but you might want to find a collegiate flying club.  I know a college as large as Kansas State has a sizable flying club and even the meager in comparison Wichita State used to own a 172 up till about 2003.  It works by you paying into the club usually, then paying for annual dues, and after that the aircraft can be rented for basically the cost of flying them.  I know that Beechcraft employees can rent an A36 bonanza for $90/hour, which is a STEAL!  But once again, it may not be realistic if there isn't one near you.

About the instrament rating:  Do it.  It makes you  a much better pilot.

As rotty mentioned, there are plenty of great jobs other than airlines.  Corporate and charter gigs can be hit an miss in terms of the possibility of job satisfaction(as can airlines), but I've seen some great positions for corporate pilots.  Industries like construction, auto sales, doctors, and franchises all have the need for pilots on staff usually and it can also pay quite well.  I would not only be open to the idea of flying in something other than airlines, but also to occupations other than flying in the aviation arena.  There is plenty out there in terms of research, business, and maintinance.
 

"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing" -Ben Franklin&&&&"Man must rise above the Earth to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only thus will he fully understand the world in which he lives." - Socrates&&&&" Flying is a religion. A religion that asymilates all who get a taste of it." - Me&&&&"Make the most out of yourself, for that is all there is of you"- Ralf Waldo Emerson&&
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Reply #5 - May 2nd, 2009 at 7:51pm

beaky   Offline
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Yes, duh...I also forgot!  Flying clubs can be an excellent way to get started. Some money up front, but that's not much different from buying a block of dual. A club with instructor-members can be perfect for getting the PP and even he other certs with lower rates for everything, and it can be fun just to be part of a club, depending on the other members.

A big  thing to watch out for with clubs is the situation where the club has a clique of experienced pilots at its core that likes to have new members pumping in dues so they can hog the airplanes. This is atypical but it can happen. As with a flight school, it's best to ask around, to get the "skinny" on the organization.

The general checklist when researching flying clubs also includes the following "good to have" points:

-Decent, airworthy airplanes
-Good member-to-airplane ratio (also find out how many members are active- many club members are not, which is good for those who want to fly)
-A well-organized reservation system
-An entry or initiation fee that actually buys you a share of the airplanes
-Regularly-scheduled meetings
-Hourly rates on he planes should be "wet" (fuel included, the club reimburses you) and it should be tach time, not Hobbs time (tach timer varies with engine rpm, so you pay less to taxi, etc.)

Regarding the IR: I only mentioned that it is not required prior to the commercial because you may reach a point where you want or need to get paid to build time, while you save up to tackle the IR.
 

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Reply #6 - May 2nd, 2009 at 10:07pm

The Ruptured Duck   Offline
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And as if this was not enough literature, AOPA has plenty online about getting started.

One more thing (maybe) from me:  Make sure to have fun.  If you aren't having fun while learning to fly, somethings wrong!  Sure there will be flights you don't want to remember, but you should be excited before each flight and the goods will almost definately outweigh the bads.  Ask your instructor to take in some airplane "culture" and fly into a pancake breakfast or go get a tour of the air traffic control tower.  One thing me and my instructor didn't get to do was visit the altitude chamber at the FAA HQ in Oklahoma City.  I don't know how common my experience of flying to fly-ins, or getting a beer an BBQ after a flight, but it was certainly positive (I think I had the benefit of having a enthusiastic CFI "fresh" out of a flight program in Salina).

Once again, I don't know anything about the airport you intend to train at, but if its a semi-busy non-controlled field I would recommend just hanging out and chatting with other people in the FBO if they aren't busy.  Try to get to know some employees or regular customers, it could pay off just in helpful information.  Just don't become the customer everyone tries  to avoid because of excessive long-windedness (it is a business, and they have stuff to do).  It could also pay off in future employment opportunities.  Since I worked at the FBO I trained at, I was there alot (fly in the morning, go to the university, then come back to the airport to work untill 10pm) and I had many opportunities to learn than other students.  I got some free instruction in a Cessna 421, Aero Commander 500B along with some "fun-time" in a gordeous Piper Cub, Hughes 500 helicopter, a short ride in a citation and even did some aerobatics in a Stearman PT17.  I got to see first hand the types of icing - clear, rime, and mixed, I watched countless mistakes and successes of other students, and gained alot of knowledge about the aviation business.

wheau!  That was more than I had intended to write.  Ok, I'm stalling, I need to get back to writing psychology term papers now Grin
 

"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing" -Ben Franklin&&&&"Man must rise above the Earth to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only thus will he fully understand the world in which he lives." - Socrates&&&&" Flying is a religion. A religion that asymilates all who get a taste of it." - Me&&&&"Make the most out of yourself, for that is all there is of you"- Ralf Waldo Emerson&&
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Reply #7 - May 3rd, 2009 at 2:17am

tcco94   Offline
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Just a suggestion, but military is always an option to get everything taken care of without paying.
You might be thinking when I say military, front line army, marines, iraq, war, and etc. but im speaking of like the Air Force and etc.

Also I know some aeronatical colleges you could attend,
I found this at a college fair in April and im very interested in this school,
http://www.erau.edu/db/degrees/ap_program/

People graduate there and fly for airliners such as Delta, American, and United.

These were just my suggestions, but im sure the tips above me are more into detail.

...I got help once asking about airliners, they said when you start you get paid CRAP money and its hard to get routes and etc. but after a while when you rank up and everything it gets better. If your planning on paying for it, I know its alot of money.

Thats why im interested in the Navy and Air Force. In college hopefully I can go to their ROTC, then become an officer, and try and get my pilots license. Although my eyes are 20/400 right now  Shocked I dont see that happening so im more towards the Navy so I can work on a vessel.

When I asked Embry Riddle (link above) about eye requirements they told me 20/20 no exceptions but allowing contacts and glasses. So thats my biggest choice right now and although its expensive school-$54,000 a year including flying they have Air Force and Army ROTC which you can get big scholarships from.

Although that was just what I knew from my head  Roll Eyes, you should be thinking about college to...its not to soon, im only a freshman Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #8 - May 3rd, 2009 at 7:35am

skoker   Offline
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tcco94 wrote on May 3rd, 2009 at 2:17am:
Just a suggestion, but military is always an option to get everything taken care of without paying.
You might be thinking when I say military, front line army, marines, iraq, war, and etc. but im speaking of like the Air Force and etc.

Also I know some aeronatical colleges you could attend,
I found this at a college fair in April and im very interested in this school,
http://www.erau.edu/db/degrees/ap_program/

People graduate there and fly for airliners such as Delta, American, and United.

These were just my suggestions, but im sure the tips above me are more into detail.

...I got help once asking about airliners, they said when you start you get paid CRAP money and its hard to get routes and etc. but after a while when you rank up and everything it gets better. If your planning on paying for it, I know its alot of money.

Thats why im interested in the Navy and Air Force. In college hopefully I can go to their ROTC, then become an officer, and try and get my pilots license. Although my eyes are 20/400 right now  Shocked I dont see that happening so im more towards the Navy so I can work on a vessel.

When I asked Embry Riddle (link above) about eye requirements they told me 20/20 no exceptions but allowing contacts and glasses. So thats my biggest choice right now and although its expensive school-$54,000 a year including flying they have Air Force and Army ROTC which you can get big scholarships from.

Although that was just what I knew from my head  Roll Eyes, you should be thinking about college to...its not to soon, im only a freshman Roll Eyes

Awhile back I was thinking of going to ERAU but my mom and I found it was toooooooooo expensive.  I stayed in New Symrna Beach over spring break and we took trips up there to see it, to be honest its no different than any other cheeper college except for you do circuits all day instead of learning! Grin
 


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Reply #9 - May 3rd, 2009 at 9:58am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Don't rule out a big university. I've spent a lot of time flying out of KOSU. The Ohio State University bases their flight training there. I've gotten friendly with countless graduates, as they spend a stint there as instructors... with their instrument/multi-engine/commercial credentials.. AND  degrees in aeronautic engineering   Cool
 
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Reply #10 - May 3rd, 2009 at 10:51am

beaky   Offline
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A small university might work, too... there are community colleges with good flight programs.
Beware, though, of putting all your academic eggs in one basket... a degree of some kind is basically required for airline employment, but it doesn't have to be aviation-related. You would be wise to major in something completely different. Could be some time before you get the flying job you want, and you could lose it unexpectedly. Many airline pilots nowadays also have a second vocation, to fill in the gaps when they are not on duty (regs limit the number of hours flown per month)... or when they are furloughed.

Regarding university flight programs in general: I have heard that  experience with glass cockpits, etc. in primary training can be  a huge plus when interviewing for an airline job, but as I said before, the airlines are not looking for pilots who went to the most expensive schools, or who have degrees in aeronautical engineering or airline management. I've also talked to some "zero hours to ATP, airline job guaranteed" school grads who told me all that didn't mean squat when they actually went to interview for a flight position.  They're looking for people with the required hours logged and required certs, who show a professional demeanor and seem like they will easily adapt to how that airline does things. They're also looking for pilots who are passionate about crewing airliners... that makes up for a lot, like having a community college degree in Liberal Arts and having only the bare minimum multi time. Grin
Military flight credentials can't hurt, but the myth that even military transport pilots are shoo-ins for airline jobs is just that- a myth. Way back when the airline industry was relatively new, it was common, but only because the military was offering better training than any civilian schools... there just weren't a lot of civilian pilots with the right training and experience. But even back then, these pilots had to fit into an airline's culture or they would not make it.


 So if money is an issue, I'd be leery of saddling yourself with a huge debt just so you can show impressive academic creds, or way more hours logged than necessary in some given category. And IMHO, going the military route for flight training is probably a better idea if you want to be a career military pilot, not just a way to save money on training. A common problem with all military specialties is that one can end up being "over-specialized"... the military does things a certain way, with certain equipment.
  An airline might really like some disciplined, organized, goal-oriented former military pilot who comes looking for a job, but his zillion hours in fighters or even transports is not necessarily going to help his prospects much for a job flying  civilian transports. He'll have to be "un-trained" to a large extent, and that's not good for the bottom line most of the time.

 I may be wrong, but I think any airline pilot will agree with me. Airlines (and any commercial flight operation) have their own ways of determining who is right for them... there's no sure-fire credential that will guarantee you a job.

You should look around for some airline pilot forums, I'm sure you can find out more about "the real deal"  from working airline pilots that way.

 

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Reply #11 - May 3rd, 2009 at 1:53pm

tcco94   Offline
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skoker wrote on May 3rd, 2009 at 7:35am:
Awhile back I was thinking of going to ERAU but my mom and I found it was toooooooooo expensive.  I stayed in New Symrna Beach over spring break and we took trips up there to see it, to be honest its no different than any other cheeper college except for you do circuits all day instead of learning! Grin

Yeah its very expensive and thats why 1 out of every 4 students that attend are in Air Force ROTC. Cool
That's why its got my interest but your not looking to go into that probally.

Well ive already decided that I want to get my degree in Aeronatical Engineering but secondary would be Geology.

I didn't know other schools like Ohio State had programs or stuff like that. Thats pretty cool but I dought ill be getting into Ohio State, im sure they require grades like yours skoker Tongue. Im only pulling out 3.2 and etc which is nice. Cool
I most likely wont get into a big university but whichever I pick you guys will for sure hear about it from me in 3 years!  Grin Cheesy

and I hope goes the same for you Skoker....(next MIT student) Cool
 
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Reply #12 - May 3rd, 2009 at 2:58pm

Steve M   Offline
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" I have heard that  experience with glass cockpits, etc. in primary training can be  a huge plus"


What does glass cockpit mean, I've heard it several times, but I never knew what it was.
 

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Flying with twins is a lot of fun..
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Reply #13 - May 3rd, 2009 at 3:09pm

tcco94   Offline
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Steve M wrote on May 3rd, 2009 at 2:58pm:
" I have heard that  experience with glass cockpits, etc. in primary training can be  a huge plus"


What does glass cockpit mean, I've heard it several times, but I never knew what it was.

Im pretty sure that glass cockpits are a new thing and more technology based...
http://www.langaair.com/images/172SPglass.jpg
As you can tell by the picture...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=glass+cockpit+training&aq=f&oq=
There's some glass cockpit training resources.  Cool
 
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Reply #14 - May 3rd, 2009 at 3:49pm

Steve M   Offline
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tcco94 wrote on May 3rd, 2009 at 3:09pm:
Steve M wrote on May 3rd, 2009 at 2:58pm:
" I have heard that  experience with glass cockpits, etc. in primary training can be  a huge plus"


What does glass cockpit mean, I've heard it several times, but I never knew what it was.

Im pretty sure that glass cockpits are a new thing and more technology based...
http://www.langaair.com/images/172SPglass.jpg
As you can tell by the picture...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=glass+cockpit+training&aq=f&oq=
There's some glass cockpit training resources.  Cool




Thanks for that reply, as I wasn't sure.    Smiley
 

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Flying with twins is a lot of fun..
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