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Four-wheel maneuverability (Read 1173 times)
Apr 29
th
, 2009 at 11:53am
chornedsnorkack
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Cars usually have wheels that can roll forward or back, and turn only a limited angle from there. They are controlled by steering wheel for turning and by gear lever for reversing.
What kind of compromises in steering and transmission might make a four-wheeled contraption capable of being driven directly crabwise? And what input devices could a driver use to drive such a car?
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Reply #1 -
Apr 29
th
, 2009 at 1:44pm
ShaneG
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If I'm not mistaken,(which I may be), I think the Early Mitsubishi 3000gt vr4's used a four wheel steering for higher performace driving as an assist because it was such a heavy pig.
Also, I think a few Skylines have had a similar feature.
But the point is, at some point during a highspeed turn, the car would indeed be driving in a 'crablike' manner.
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Reply #2 -
Apr 30
th
, 2009 at 9:48am
beaky
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IMHO, only thing that would really be good for is parking.
You could vastly reduce the turn radius, but how fast could one really take a corner with a car like that?
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Reply #3 -
May 1
st
, 2009 at 3:14pm
chornedsnorkack
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beaky wrote
on Apr 30
th
, 2009 at 9:48am:
IMHO, only thing that would really be good for is parking.
You could vastly reduce the turn radius,
Precisely.
beaky wrote
on Apr 30
th
, 2009 at 9:48am:
but how fast could one really take a corner with a car like that?
Trying to take fast corners would mean high accelerations anyway.
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Reply #4 -
May 1
st
, 2009 at 3:31pm
scalper_old
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beaky wrote
on Apr 30
th
, 2009 at 9:48am:
IMHO, only thing that would really be good for is parking.
You could vastly reduce the turn radius, but how fast could one really take a corner with a car like that?
You are on the button. I had a 93 nissan 240 with the Hicus steering. = 4 wheel steering. parking was just a pure joy. the trying to park a honda accord the same way forget about it.
I miss me old yellow and black roof 240
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Reply #5 -
May 13
th
, 2009 at 3:01am
U4EA
Ex Member
I wish I had a dollar for everytime I got caught "high-speed" crabbing around the bomb dump in a Coleman Tug!
The Colemans were able to do a 180 within their own length.
A time or two a month there'd come a call over the radio from the head-shed tower, "Echo 10! Your shop chief would like to speak to you in his office."
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Reply #6 -
May 14
th
, 2009 at 4:55am
chornedsnorkack
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U4EA wrote
on May 13
th
, 2009 at 3:01am:
I wish I had a dollar for everytime I got caught "high-speed" crabbing around the bomb dump in a Coleman Tug!
The Colemans were able to do a 180 within their own length.
Does it have rounded front and back end then?
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Reply #7 -
May 15
th
, 2009 at 2:42am
U4EA
Ex Member
Nope! Just 4-wheel steering!
Coleman Tug, a.k.a Aircraft Tow Tractor. 100,000lb tow capacity. When I was in the USAF we used them for towing munitions trailers. They were painted a decorative OD.
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Reply #8 -
May 15
th
, 2009 at 4:11am
chornedsnorkack
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U4EA wrote
on May 15
th
, 2009 at 2:42am:
Nope! Just 4-wheel steering!
[img]
But then its diagonal is longer than its length. How can it possibly turn around in its length?
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Reply #9 -
May 16
th
, 2009 at 12:17am
U4EA
Ex Member
Uhhhhhhh, could be cause its turn radius, when both the front and rear steer is at full limit, is a foot or so shy of it's length.
Full steer puts the tires at about a 60 angle from centered.....when the fronts are one way and the rears are another, the tug will crab just a tad shy of dead-a$$ sideways!
I'm no geometry expert so I can't logically discuss the specifics. All I can say is we never actually got out a tape measure and chalkline.....but I almost squished my boss one time by quick-turnin' as he stood next to the driver side door....with the rear bumper!
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Reply #10 -
May 20
th
, 2009 at 3:35am
chornedsnorkack
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On usual cars, turning steering wheel turns both axles, right?
How are the two axles separately controlled on a Coleman tug?
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Reply #11 -
May 20
th
, 2009 at 4:39am
expat
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chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 3:35am:
On usual cars, turning steering wheel turns both axles, right?
How are the two axles separately controlled on a Coleman tug?
Same as any tug, Coleman, Schopff, Fresia, clever hydraulics and a computer or two if it is not older than 10 years or so.
Matt
PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals.
B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
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Reply #12 -
May 21
st
, 2009 at 4:41am
chornedsnorkack
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expat wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 4:39am:
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 3:35am:
On usual cars, turning steering wheel turns both axles, right?
How are the two axles separately controlled on a Coleman tug?
Same as any tug, Coleman, Schopff, Fresia, clever hydraulics and a computer or two if it is not older than 10 years or so.
Matt
I have only seen outside pictures of Coleman tugs. What is the inside like, what kind of driver controls allow 4 wheel steering to be separately controlled?
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Reply #13 -
May 21
st
, 2009 at 4:48am
expat
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chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 21
st
, 2009 at 4:41am:
expat wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 4:39am:
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 3:35am:
On usual cars, turning steering wheel turns both axles, right?
How are the two axles separately controlled on a Coleman tug?
Same as any tug, Coleman, Schopff, Fresia, clever hydraulics and a computer or two if it is not older than 10 years or so.
Matt
I have only seen outside pictures of Coleman tugs. What is the inside like, what kind of driver controls allow 4 wheel steering to be separately controlled?
In all the tugs I have driven, it is push button control. And not quite sure what you mean by separately controlled? The options are generally, forward wheel steering, rear wheel steering, four wheel steering and the ability to crab, i.e all wheels pointing in the same direction, so you can go forward/backwards diagonally.
Matt
PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals.
B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
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Reply #14 -
May 22
nd
, 2009 at 3:16am
chornedsnorkack
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I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 363
expat wrote
on May 21
st
, 2009 at 4:48am:
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 21
st
, 2009 at 4:41am:
expat wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 4:39am:
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 3:35am:
On usual cars, turning steering wheel turns both axles, right?
How are the two axles separately controlled on a Coleman tug?
Same as any tug, Coleman, Schopff, Fresia, clever hydraulics and a computer or two if it is not older than 10 years or so.
Matt
I have only seen outside pictures of Coleman tugs. What is the inside like, what kind of driver controls allow 4 wheel steering to be separately controlled?
In all the tugs I have driven, it is push button control. And not quite sure what you mean by separately controlled? The options are generally, forward wheel steering, rear wheel steering, four wheel steering and the ability to crab, i.e all wheels pointing in the same direction, so you can go forward/backwards diagonally.
I mean, a steering wheel is a continuous input control. You could turn your front wheels 60 degrees from centered, or 30 degrees, or 53 degrees - and angle.
But I understand then that there is no separate continuous input control? You cannot turn your front wheels 50 degrees to the right and rear wheels 23 degrees to the right - you only have 3 options by push button, namely 50 degrees to the right if crabbing, 50 degrees to the left if 4 wheel steering, or 0 degrees if front wheel steering.
Correct?
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Reply #15 -
May 22
nd
, 2009 at 6:34am
ShaneG
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I turned into a Martian!
Posts: 10000
expat wrote
on May 21
st
, 2009 at 4:48am:
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 21
st
, 2009 at 4:41am:
expat wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 4:39am:
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 3:35am:
On usual cars, turning steering wheel turns both axles, right?
How are the two axles separately controlled on a Coleman tug?
Same as any tug, Coleman, Schopff, Fresia, clever hydraulics and a computer or two if it is not older than 10 years or so.
Matt
I have only seen outside pictures of Coleman tugs. What is the inside like, what kind of driver controls allow 4 wheel steering to be separately controlled?
In all the tugs I have driven, it is push button control. And not quite sure what you mean by separately controlled? The options are generally, forward wheel steering, rear wheel steering, four wheel steering and the ability to crab, i.e all wheels pointing in the same direction, so you can go forward/backwards diagonally.
Matt
A fellow here has a Monster Truck and it uses this same system.
♪♫♪‼
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Reply #16 -
May 22
nd
, 2009 at 10:08am
expat
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Deep behind enemy lines!
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Posts: 8499
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 22
nd
, 2009 at 3:16am:
expat wrote
on May 21
st
, 2009 at 4:48am:
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 21
st
, 2009 at 4:41am:
expat wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 4:39am:
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 20
th
, 2009 at 3:35am:
On usual cars, turning steering wheel turns both axles, right?
How are the two axles separately controlled on a Coleman tug?
Same as any tug, Coleman, Schopff, Fresia, clever hydraulics and a computer or two if it is not older than 10 years or so.
Matt
I have only seen outside pictures of Coleman tugs. What is the inside like, what kind of driver controls allow 4 wheel steering to be separately controlled?
In all the tugs I have driven, it is push button control. And not quite sure what you mean by separately controlled? The options are generally, forward wheel steering, rear wheel steering, four wheel steering and the ability to crab, i.e all wheels pointing in the same direction, so you can go forward/backwards diagonally.
I mean, a steering wheel is a continuous input control. You could turn your front wheels 60 degrees from centered, or 30 degrees, or 53 degrees - and angle.
But I understand then that there is no separate continuous input control? You cannot turn your front wheels 50 degrees to the right and rear wheels 23 degrees to the right - you only have 3 options by push button, namely 50 degrees to the right if crabbing, 50 degrees to the left if 4 wheel steering, or 0 degrees if front wheel steering.
Correct?
Generally that is correct. I have seen cargo loaders that can do what you are asking, that being front and rear independent steering. When unloading an Air Bus fuselage for example, the loader is so long it is easier to line up rather be than go back and forth all day looking for that half centimeter to the left, whoops, now a half to the right.
Matt
PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals.
B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
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Reply #17 -
May 22
nd
, 2009 at 2:31pm
KJC
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Fly FS
Posts: 1
U4EA wrote
on May 13
th
, 2009 at 3:01am:
I wish I had a dollar for everytime I got caught "high-speed" crabbing around the bomb dump in a Coleman Tug!
The Colemans were able to do a 180 within their own length.
A time or two a month there'd come a call over the radio from the head-shed tower, "Echo 10! Your shop chief would like to speak to you in his office."
I may have a chance to buy one of these so I would be interested to know what high speed means.What sort of road speed could be obtained in a straight line.
KJC
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Reply #18 -
May 22
nd
, 2009 at 2:53pm
expat
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Deep behind enemy lines!
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KJC wrote
on May 22
nd
, 2009 at 2:31pm:
U4EA wrote
on May 13
th
, 2009 at 3:01am:
I wish I had a dollar for everytime I got caught "high-speed" crabbing around the bomb dump in a Coleman Tug!
The Colemans were able to do a 180 within their own length.
A time or two a month there'd come a call over the radio from the head-shed tower, "Echo 10! Your shop chief would like to speak to you in his office."
I may have a chance to buy one of these so I would be interested to know what high speed means.What sort of road speed could be obtained in a straight line.
KJC
My general experience is they are limited to about 30mph.
Matt
PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals.
B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
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Reply #19 -
May 23
rd
, 2009 at 4:59am
chornedsnorkack
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I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 363
Note that a device that is limited to 60 degrees of steering CANNOT turn 180 degrees in its diagonal.
Turning 180 degrees in its own diagonal would require 4 wheel steering at 90 degrees.
Are the tugs able to travel at 30 mph in all directions including reverse and crabwise, or do they have lower speed limits when not straight ahead?
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Reply #20 -
May 23
rd
, 2009 at 12:45pm
expat
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Deep behind enemy lines!
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Posts: 8499
chornedsnorkack wrote
on May 23
rd
, 2009 at 4:59am:
Note that a device that is limited to 60 degrees of steering CANNOT turn 180 degrees in its diagonal.
Turning 180 degrees in its own diagonal would require 4 wheel steering at 90 degrees.
Are the tugs able to travel at 30 mph in all directions including reverse and crabwise, or do they have lower speed limits when not straight ahead?
Some can and some can't in my experience. However doing Vmax in a tug in any direction other than forward, lets say it can get interesting because if you going flat out and have to turn a corner or swerve unexpectedly and you are in crab mode, well it is going to end in tears and a large bill. Fortunately I learned my lesson from someone else making a very public and expensive cockup.
Matt
PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals.
B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
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