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Complicated Missing Log Book Question (Read 349 times)
Apr 27th, 2009 at 12:57pm

RitterKreuz   Offline
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Texas

Gender: male
Posts: 1253
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I posed this question to the appropriate authorities on the subject matter... thought i would get ideas here too Smiley

here goes
====================

I am a CFI working with a student who had completed most of his
training in the late 1990's.

His log book was stolen some years ago and he had taken a long
hiatus from flight training.

he purchased a new log book about 6 months ago to resume training,
and he had written his previous flight school requesting a copy of all of
his receipts so he could fill out his new log book with the old flight
times.

the old flight school provided him with detailed receipts, and he
recorded the hours in the new log book.

unfortunately, a fair number - in fact almost all of his previous
flight time was "dual received". He has asked me if the flight
instructor's signature had to appear on each dual received entry in
the log book.

i explained to him that an instructor is required to sign entries
which denote dual flight instruction in a student's log book, and that
as far as myself and the FAA would be concerned he would
need to have those prior entries signed by the instructor who
originally conducted the training at the time for those hours to be
considered legal and valid.

his concern is - if he is unable to locate the instructors who signed
his log book several years ago, that those hours would be considered
voided... i have advised him that this "voided hours" scenario is a
possibility, and that when he goes for a check ride the examiner would
probably be displeased with the fact that 90% of his dual flight time
lacks any instructor signatures, and that his prior solo flights have
no endorsements or instructor signatures authorizing such flights.

my question is: Are there any waivers or "loop holes" or log book
entries that can be made so that he can retain credit for the original
training if he is unable to locate the previous instructors to get
their signatures?

I have never heard of such a thing, but i would be doing him a
disservice by not trying to find out.

so what do you guys think?
 
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Reply #1 - Apr 27th, 2009 at 1:08pm

RitterKreuz   Offline
Colonel
Texas

Gender: male
Posts: 1253
*****
 
Personally, i think that he is screwed unless he can find the original instructors (there are 3 i think) that conducted his training, and that he can convince them to sign his entries on good faith and credit that they are correct to the best of everyone's knowledge.

as for my log books...  Cheesy

they are kept under lock and key in a fire proof, water tight carry safe box. One set of keys is hidden near the box, the other set is on my key ring.

I cannot stress the value of maintaining thorough, complete, accurate log books - and keeping them safe from theft or harm.

one of those fire proof water proof boxes might not be a bad idea... and if it is out of the question for you and you have finished with an original log book which contains instructors signatures and sign offs i have only three words

Safe Deposit Box  Undecided Undecided
 
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Reply #2 - Apr 27th, 2009 at 2:09pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

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I'm a non-current CFI... Funny thing that neither of us "know" the answers here.

I knew a guy who was in a similar situation.. and he got what I think is the best answer to the question(s)...

Anything in your logbook that required signatures, is really moot, if you aint flown in a decade. You need to re-do all that stuff anyway, and satisfy your current instructor, before he just takes your word on things like; night-time-X-country-navigation..  Shocked (like if he chose to do his instrument X-country at night, like I did (in level 2 storms no less Tongue )

You're gonna want to see so much of his skill, first-hand, that anything left-over, isn't worth worrying about.

Tell him to stop sweating it, and get down to business   Wink
 
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Reply #3 - Apr 27th, 2009 at 2:15pm

RitterKreuz   Offline
Colonel
Texas

Gender: male
Posts: 1253
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I agree with you totally Brett... and it is my opinion exactly.

the problem my student has is this - and it is a biggie.

through the 1990's he was an individual that would go on a 2 month flight training binge and then quit because of financial reasons, or because he moved, or because his wife had a baby (you know the type  Roll Eyes )

at any rate... his log book totals 150+ hours total flight time part 61.

he now has grown considerably older, more mature and more financially stable and has provided the cash to complete his private instrument and commercial.

as you can see from this information - that 150+ hours is not "throw away" flight time.

so we are not talking about 20 hours of dual here.  Undecided

i have told him he is going to pretty much have to repeat everything to get a private... but he wants to keep that total time towards his 250 hours for commercial total time.

to be perfectly honest... im considering cutting him lose as these little situations are starting to add up.
 
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Reply #4 - Apr 27th, 2009 at 2:44pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

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I wouldn't cut him loose (though I'm not privy to the other things that are adding up)..

To him:

"Listen.. you were no doubt told long ago, that training in spurts would mean having to repeat many things.. so some of those hours are already thrown away, logged or otherwise" ... "THe stuff that I'd  REQUIRE you to learn as I wintenss, before I'd sign you off on ANYthing, account for the rest of it" ... "Consult an aviation attorney about the hours you have reciepts for.. if he says OK.. you can log them toward total hours, but nothing that was signature worthy is valid.. end of story  .. discussion closed".

If he intends to DO anything with the license (like travel with civilians on board).. or  DO anything with the instrument ticket (like fly IMC).. we're talking about a flying adventure that will run into the hundreds (if not thousands) of hours..  If he's sweating a few hours now, he's likely a menace in the making  Tongue
 
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Reply #5 - Apr 27th, 2009 at 3:47pm

beaky   Offline
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Newark, NJ USA

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I don't think there's a loophole, and I wouldn't look for one. He's not paying you for that kind of "favor", whether he thinks so or not. Your job is to bring him up to snuff, even if it takes another 40 hrs of dual. Let him ask somebody else about that.


There's no harm in trying to find the original CFIs to sign off some of those hours, but I agree that for regaining his privileges, the total hours are unimportant. If his priorities are skewed to the point that he wants to be "rubber stamped" so he can move on to the higher ratings with a "legally padded" logbook, that attitude needs to be corrected, even if it means losing him as a student. He will be a problem for you with that attitude. I feel for the guy, but that's just not kosher, FARs be damned.  Don't let that attitude "infect" you.



Beyond that, I don't see any risk to you, except for your conscience. Let's say he gets signed off for 20 of those hours, you accept that as legit, and he manages to prove worthy of the check ride after 20 hrs with you. If he wants to present a logbook for 200+ hrs to someone else later for a higher rating, that's on him, not you.

Except for your conscience...  Grin ....  and, of course, in the event he does get into trouble, the FAA may find a way to slap some liability on you, even if his former CFIs sign off on the old hours. You never know.

Another thought: his receipts might prove he took the dual, but you may never know the whole story. Maybe he stopped because he was a lousy student.
 

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Reply #6 - Apr 27th, 2009 at 4:32pm

RitterKreuz   Offline
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Texas

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Posts: 1253
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excellent points rotty

its like i told him

ME: "lets pretend im the FAA and you brought me that log book lacking CFI signatures"

HIM: "Ok"

ME (as FAA): "Do you have a pilot logbook?"

HIM: "Yes"

ME (as FAA): "Do you have logged PIC/Solo Flight time as a student pilot in it?"

HIM: "Yes"

ME (as FAA): "Was the solo flight time logged legally within the letter of the federal aviation regulations?"

HIM: "Yes"

ME (as FAA): "Prove it."

HIM: *epiphany followed by several seconds of silence*
 
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Reply #7 - Apr 28th, 2009 at 10:32am

beaky   Offline
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RitterKreuz wrote on Apr 27th, 2009 at 4:32pm:
excellent points rotty

its like i told him

ME: "lets pretend im the FAA and you brought me that log book lacking CFI signatures"

HIM: "Ok"

ME (as FAA): "Do you have a pilot logbook?"

HIM: "Yes"

ME (as FAA): "Do you have logged PIC/Solo Flight time as a student pilot in it?"

HIM: "Yes"

ME (as FAA): "Was the solo flight time logged legally within the letter of the federal aviation regulations?"

HIM: "Yes"

ME (as FAA): "Prove it."

HIM: *epiphany followed by several seconds of silence*


Cheesy

 

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