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AFMC Search for new Air Force One (Read 858 times)
Apr 26th, 2009 at 5:15am

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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Quote:
AFMC begins search for new Air Force One

By Bruce Rolfsen - brolfsen@militarytimes.com
Posted : Saturday Jan 10, 2009 10:15:53 EST

The Air Force needs new a new Air Force One — three new Air Force Ones, to be exact.

The pair of modified Boeing 747-200s now flying as the president’s airplane need to be retired starting in 2017, according to Air Force Materiel Command.

On Jan. 7, Materiel Command asked firms interested in providing the next-generation of presidential airlift to submit basic information on how they would go about designing and building the planes. The submission deadline is Jan. 29.

Materiel Command wants the first new Air Force One ready for operation in 2017, with two others to follow in 2019 and 2021. The jets will start as commercial airframes but will be extensively customized to handle the presidential staff’s security and communications needs, including the ability to refuel in flight and operate from airfields too small for most large passenger jets.

There was no mention of a projected budget in Materiel Command’s request. Each of the current 747s cost about $350 million when new. The price tag for the next generation is likely to be much higher — the presidential helicopters now in development cost around $400 million each.

Only two firms build wide-body commercial jets large enough to serve as Air Force One — Boeing Co. and the European-based Airbus. Aircraft cited as likely candidates include the Boeing 747-800 and the Airbus A380.

The Air Force is not ruling out using an overseas firm to build Air Force One. “The level of security and amount of foreign participation in this requirement has not been determined,” the request advised contractors.

The two planes flying as Air Force One — officially designated VC-25s — were purchased in 1987 and delivered in 1990. Both jets were expected to fly without major overhauls for 30 years. The Air Force considered upgrades to the jets instead of buying new planes but concluded the lack of spare parts and modification costs made it unwise to keep the 747s flying much beyond 2017.

Air Force Times
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/01/airforce_airforceone_replacement_01080...


Quote:
Airbus won't bid for Air Force One

By Michelle Dunlop, Herald Writer
EVERETT -- The Boeing Co. looks like a shoo-in to build the next presidential plane, considering its European rival won't compete for the U.S. contract.

Boeing has been the government's preferred supplier of its Air Force One fleet. Early this month, the Air Force suggested that companies interested in competing for the business should respond this week. Boeing's competitor European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., the parent company of Airbus, said it won't go after the contract.

Based on the Air Force's solicitation, industry observers thought EADS may pit the Airbus A380 superjumbo jet against Boeing's updated 747-8 jumbo jet. In 1990, the Air Force received the existing Boeing 747-200 aircraft, which had a estimated life of 30 years. The government hopes to buy three presidential jets with deliveries in 2017, 2019 and 2021.

The Air Force solicitation for bidders raised concerns that future American presidents would fly in a jet that wasn't made in the U.S. But EADS reported that competing to build Air Force One would not help it meet its "business objectives" of winning aerospace and defense jobs.

It reiterated its commitment to bidding for the U.S. Air Force aerial refueling tanker contract with partner Northrop Grumman. The duo beat out Boeing for the $35 billion deal last February. But government auditors found flaws in the competition and suggested the Pentagon rebid the contract.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates told a congressional committee Tuesday that he plans to restart the tanker competition after the new presidential administration fills key defense posts and those positions are confirmed by Congress.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20090129/BIZ/701299854


Quote:
 Why The Requirement?

 Insiders say the reason is simple:the US President got the wrong aircraft to begin with. When the USAF purchased the VC-25A in 1986, new airliners had glass cockpits, two engines, and two pilots. The USAF wanted analog instruments (again, because of EMP in atomic was scenario), four-engine reliability, and larger flight crew. It could have gotten four engines (but just two pilots) with the Boeing 747-400, the advanced version of the 747 then soon to enter production. Instead, the USAF chose the older 747-200, which was being phased out. Because of misplaced thinking thinking about security and safety, the USAF saddled the President with an aircraft that was obsolete the day it rolled out the factory.  

 An insider Pentagon source who did not want to be named bolstered this reasoning with this quote: 'The VC-25A cockpit is analog, non-glass 1960s/70s technology and is not easily upgradeable. Since it was designed, in the last dozen years, the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] and ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organization] have implemented myriad air traffic control/airspace management initiatives/standards such as GATM [Global Air Traffic Management] and now CNS/ATM [Communication Navigation Surveillance and Air Traffic Management] that require new digital cockpit displays, new digital autopilots, new digital radio altimeters, new digital flight directors, Flight Management System, new pitot/static systems. new air data computers...the list goes on and on. All these upgrades are absolutely required in order for VC-25A to fly in normalcruising airspace, meaning FL290-FL410 (29,000ft to 41,000ft) or even to fly at all in certain European airspace, and to approach and land at certain airports.'

 The Pentagon source continued:'Moreover, the standards in information technology, such as C4I [Command, control, communication, computers and information] for the President have risen so sharply in the past 20 years that tearing out the old systems in the jet and going to IP [Internet Protocol]-based 'backbone' would be too costly.' In short, modifying the VC-25As would be costlier then purchasing new aircraft.

 A different source dropped a hint about the the VC-25A nose gear being  near the end of its service life. This seems unlikely as a matter of fact and even less likely as a reason to replace an aircraft.

 If Airbus is serious about not participation in a new Air Force One competition, Washington may be spared the unbearable prospect of a re-run of the USAF's failed KC-X competition to purchase a new air refueling tanker, which has now been taken away from the Air Staff and is in the hands of the Department of Defense acquisitions boss John young. In KC-X, the Airbus tanker, which was to have been designated KC-45A, was chosen over the Boeing entry. US contractor Northrop Grumman was to assemble KC-45as on US soil. Legalistic wrangling and Washington politics killed the deal.
 
www.combataircraft.net  Pg-17 of the Magazine


So the speculation is a 777-300LR and the 747-8I both have artist concepts on Page 16 and 17 of the latest Combat Aircraft Magazine.
 

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Reply #1 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 7:52am

expat   Offline
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In aircraft life terms they must be still new regardless of analog cockpits. I would like to know how many hours and cycles they have. In comparison to any other 747 in this world probably nothing.............glad I am not a US tax payer Grin

Still, should spark a few Boeing/Air Bus threads throughout the amassed aviation websites Grin

Matt
 

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Reply #2 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 8:25am
An-225   Ex Member

 
Regardless of capability, I highly doubt the A380 will be the next Air Force One.

Why?

The 747 is a national icon. It is an awe inspiring sight to watch a 747 complete with the Star Spangled Banner roll into your home-airport's General Aviation section.

I also doubt that they will use a 777 as the new Air Force One, because of the safety issue of only two engines. I have never seen a VC-25 refuel. The VC-25 pilots train on E-4Bs due to the risk.

If such a regular occurrence in military aviation is barred under normal circumstances, having only two engines could cause a quandary.

I've heard that the VC-25 uses a half analog cockpit. I also see no reason for the current VC-25s to be replaced anytime soon, the USAF would even like to extend C-5 Galaxy service until around 2040. With -400 engines, I can see the VC-25 lasting until 2030 for such a delicate operation.

The VC-25 has only been around for 20 years...it is still a very young airplane. Maybe I'm just reluctant to accept any airplanes different to the ones I already know. Air Force One has always been a 747-200 in my mind.
 
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Reply #3 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 11:40am

specter177   Offline
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They should wait until Boeing comes out with the BWB, or a new SST.
 

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Reply #4 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 12:57pm

C   Offline
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I suspect unless a major US contractor offered a straight off the shelf airframe conversion (which would be nigh on impossible), Airbus wouldn't bother on financial grounds. Can't see it going to a non-US manufacturer, ie, Airbus.

Not to mention there are several issues with keeping a 747 based platform (AAR etc) rather than a new type.

Quote:
the presidential helicopters now in development cost around $400 million each.


Journalism at its best - is that the Presidential helicopter programme that was all but cancelled a fortnight ago.

 
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Reply #5 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 1:33pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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expat wrote on Apr 26th, 2009 at 7:52am:
In aircraft life terms they must be still new regardless of analog cockpits. I would like to know how many hours and cycles they have. In comparison to any other 747 in this world probably nothing.............glad I am not a US tax payer Grin

Still, should spark a few Boeing/Air Bus threads throughout the amassed aviation websites Grin

Matt

They asked the white house for that very information, and they did not comment, said it was classified. Although it should have less hours then a normal 747-2, it is still used a lot, every time the President leaves Washington D.C., they take the big plane.

And like the article said, to upgrade both planes would be crazy expensive. Just from reading past articles on other planes getting new upgrades, like the Nimrods for example, I would guess it to be well over $400+ Million worth of upgrades to just one plane, plus paying for the depot work to install the new $400+ million dollars worth of computers. So maybe $1Billion total after it is said and done, when a 747-400 is now around $200millon, and comes with all the new equipment that is required, and all that is left is added the extra computers and defensive systems. So if they go with the 747-8i it has the latest computers, since they are only looking now, by the time they decided to buy it if they do, the 800 series should have already been made for a while and should go down in price as more and more people have been buying them.

But Air Force Material Command is still only looking, because they have some time to get requirement right before making a purchase by 2017
 

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Reply #6 - Apr 30th, 2009 at 11:47am

Al_Fallujah   Ex Member

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I recommend converting the C-23 Sherpa.

Grin

In all honesty though.. maybe someone can explain to me why or why not a conversion from a tried and true cargo aircraft like the C-17 or something?

Its got SPACE in there.They could add what ever they want.
Its got 4 engines, heavy lifting ability, and can land places a 747 couldn't.

Addidtionally, as a taxpayer, if it saves some money, and they have to make a small sacrifice on space, I  think I can live with that.

 
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Reply #7 - Apr 30th, 2009 at 12:53pm

Al_Fallujah   Ex Member

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I just wanted to add, I know overall, the C-17 is a smaller aircraft.
But, all politics aside, the times call for downsizing.

If corprorations are being forced to drop their aviation programs, why can't the executive branch downsize its needs?

Just an idea.
 
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Reply #8 - Apr 30th, 2009 at 5:58pm

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@an-255
You want 747's getting refuelled... you get 747s being refuelled
http://www.ausairpower.net/kb-747-1A.jpg
OK it's an IIAF VIP transport but the system is the same

And an E-4
http://www.bytebakpc.com/135refuelE4B.jpg
 

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones),  Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here
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Reply #9 - Apr 30th, 2009 at 5:58pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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Well after you load a C-17 up with all the stuff the current VC-25 has, then add the weight of the EMP shielding, plus all the back ups it has, you now have a plane that has to be Air Refueled every time it leaves the country with the President on board. Not to mention it is almost 200kts slower in top speed, and you would have to modify at least 4 of them.

And although a VC-17 would make a great plane to fly around Nourth America with, the logistics that go with it for flying to other countries to support a Presidential move would require even more planes total.

Trip to Europe with VC-25: VC-25 back up, E-4B, C-32, C-5B, 2 C-17's, and Jet for all the Secret Service guys.

Trip with VC-17: 3 back up VC-17's, E-4B, C-32, C-5B, 2 regular C-17's, 2 KC-10's, And Secret Jet id they don't ride on the KC-10's.

The only reason I say that, is because with the C-17 maxed out on weight it cuts it range down, since it was designed as a tactical air lifter, unlike the C-5. So As soon as the 4 VC-17's were air born, they would all need topping off. And since it is a presidential mission, they have to have a back up tanker ready to go at a moments notice just in case the first one broke for any reason. While on the other hand the 2 regular factory modded C-17's carrying support stuff would be light enough to make it all the way over.

As a fellow tax payer, I agree why can't they use a smaller plane like a 777 or 787. But as an avid aircraft person, and seeing things first hand I under stand the impotence of protecting one of the most powerful people on Earth at all cost.

Nobody really though about it but Tony Blair had one of the best secure planes before they retired it, the Concorde. It flew to fast to be a target, and you really could not plan an assassination on it because the RAF like the USAF kept mission secret until it happened. And not many people could plan and implement a way to get to him in the time it took the Concord to leave the UK and land in the US or any of the another countries he needed to visit.       

Between the: US(747-2), UK(Concord/777), & Japan(747-4), all the planes went high, fast, and have decent range to keep the leaders out of harms way.
 

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Reply #10 - Apr 30th, 2009 at 6:25pm

C   Offline
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Apr 30th, 2009 at 5:58pm:
Nobody really though about it but Tony Blair had one of the best secure planes before they retired it, the Concorde. It flew to fast to be a target, and you really could not plan an assassination on it because the RAF like the USAF kept mission secret until it happened. And not many people could plan and implement a way to get to him in the time it took the Concord to leave the UK and land in the US or any of the another countries he needed to visit.        

Between the: US(747-2), UK(Concord/777), & Japan(747-4), all the planes went high, fast, and have decent range to keep the leaders out of harms way.


Up until the 90's the RAF used a proper VIP fit on the VC10s - IIRC it was Blair who scrapped it. I don't think any British Government official including the PM ever used Concorde on anything other than scheduled flights, if at all. It couldn't be afforded or justified otherwise. As for the VC10, it shared it's major problem with Concorde. Noise!

Nowadays, the UK government and Royals charter/use scheduled BA 777s (and others) as required. If they're going to "hotter" places, so to speak, the VIP comms fleet of 32Sqn with the DAS equipped BAe 146 and 125 take over.

Why does the US have to have a 747? To be bigger than everyone else of course. Impressions count. Even Mr Sarkozy of France has just ordered an A330.
 
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Reply #11 - Apr 30th, 2009 at 7:32pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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C wrote on Apr 30th, 2009 at 6:25pm:
Nowadays, the UK government and Royals charter/use scheduled BA 777s (and others) as required. If they're going to "hotter" places, so to speak, the VIP comms fleet of 32Sqn with the DAS equipped BAe 146 and 125 take over.

Why does the US have to have a 747? To be bigger than everyone else of course. Impressions count. Even Mr Sarkozy of France has just ordered an A330.

I have seen the Ba-125 when Canada came down to visit us for something, great plane if you don't have do a lot inside it. Kinda hard to run your country from it though, not enough room to do any thing on it, just make phone calls.

You gotta remember the USAF went from C-45, to a C-121, to 707, and almost every time they went from one plane to the next, the requirements changes. Right now the need is for: Long Range Unrefueled, In flight refueling, standard communication, VHF, UFH, SATCOM, Broadband, Secure Telecommunication,  Secure Fax, Secure Email, DATA-Link, DOD communications at all time, the people to monitor the equipment, and not to mention the computers to run and sort all the data going into and out of the on board Command and Control Center. All that alone takes up a lot of space, before you start to get to into the rest of what is needed for VIP travel. And the question always comes up "Does He/She really need all that in a plane?" and the answer is: Yes! They are the Commander and Chief after all, and if something were to happen while away from the White House, the aircraft double as "Flying White House", so every thing that is needed to do the job in the capital is condensed down to an aircraft.  After all that Luxury items are added befitting a VIP.

Every one figured the French President was gonna get an A380 any way, that really comes as no surprise, after all Airbus is French based, and that is there most crowning build, so why not fit it to the leader of there country? The 707 and then the 747 was Boeing's best thing going, and offered it to the USAF, while Russia has the Ilyushin Il-96. All it is, is the manufacture from each country advertising there best products so the world can see.
 

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Reply #12 - Apr 30th, 2009 at 8:32pm
An-225   Ex Member

 
Ivan, I understand that specially fitted 747s can refuel in mid-air. But my point is, that I've never seen the VC-25 do it, and the pilots train on the E-4B instead.

If AAR is such an issue for the plane carrying the president, I can't see a plane with two engines being supported.
 
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Reply #13 - May 1st, 2009 at 5:48am

C   Offline
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Apr 30th, 2009 at 7:32pm:
Every one figured the French President was gonna get an A380 any way, that really comes as no surprise, after all Airbus is French based, and that is there most crowning build, so why not fit it to the leader of there country?


He isn't. He's getting an A330, not an A380. Smiley

Quote:
If AAR is such an issue for the plane carrying the president, I can't see a plane with two engines being supported.


Not really an issue, but more of a problem would be the extended loitering ability of a twin should they lose an engine.
 
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Reply #14 - May 1st, 2009 at 6:15pm

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thank god airbus won't bid!
 

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