Simviation Forum - Vulture shatters airplane windshield

Feb 17^th, 2009 at 11:43am

aussiewannabe Offline
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http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/national_world&id=6662103

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Reply #1 - Feb 17^th, 2009 at 12:28pm

Anxyous Offline
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Thank God, the vulture didn't hit him...

Though I find it a bit un-intelligent, to say that birds crashed into the US Airways plane... The plane crashing into the birds sounds more likely Cheesy

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Reply #2 - Feb 18^th, 2009 at 3:51pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
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And this is why I like large planes with 3 ply glass laminate.

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Reply #3 - Feb 19^th, 2009 at 5:38am

expat Offline
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 18^th, 2009 at 3:51pm:

And this is why I like large planes with 3 ply glass laminate.

It in not the three ply glass (though it helps) that stops them coming through but window heating, without that you would probably have the same effect.

Matt

« Last Edit: Feb 19^th, 2009 at 8:40am by expat »

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Reply #4 - Feb 19^th, 2009 at 8:21am

specter177 Offline
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I like the comment on the story! Grin

Quote:

I bet the bird doesn't have the guts to do that again!

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Reply #5 - Feb 19^th, 2009 at 10:55am

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
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expat wrote on Feb 19^th, 2009 at 5:38am:

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 18^th, 2009 at 3:51pm:

And this is why I like large planes with 3 ply glass laminate.

It in not the three ply glass (though it helps) that stops them coming through but window heating, without that you would probably have the same effect.

Matt

I don't know, the glass used on heavy/wide bodies, is about 3 inches think, pretty strong.

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Reply #6 - Feb 19^th, 2009 at 11:51am

expat Offline
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 19^th, 2009 at 10:55am:

expat wrote on Feb 19^th, 2009 at 5:38am:

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 18^th, 2009 at 3:51pm:

And this is why I like large planes with 3 ply glass laminate.

It in not the three ply glass (though it helps) that stops them coming through but window heating, without that you would probably have the same effect.

Matt

I don't know, the glass used on heavy/wide bodies, is about 3 inches think, pretty strong.

You are right, thick glass is strong, but when it is hit at speed, something had to give. Best that the window frame does not. Window heating, has two functions, the first is to give the pain a little bit of give in the event of a bird strike, a secondary function of window heating is anti icing.

Matt

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Reply #7 - Feb 20^th, 2009 at 11:52am

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
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expat wrote on Feb 19^th, 2009 at 11:51am:

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 19^th, 2009 at 10:55am:

expat wrote on Feb 19^th, 2009 at 5:38am:

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 18^th, 2009 at 3:51pm:

And this is why I like large planes with 3 ply glass laminate.

It in not the three ply glass (though it helps) that stops them coming through but window heating, without that you would probably have the same effect.

Matt

I don't know, the glass used on heavy/wide bodies, is about 3 inches think, pretty strong.

You are right, thick glass is strong, but when it is hit at speed, something had to give. Best that the window frame does not. Window heating, has two functions, the first is to give the pain a little bit of give in the event of a bird strike, a secondary function of window heating is anti icing.

Matt

I am going to have to take a picture of our window at work, I think yours my be built different.

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Reply #8 - Feb 20^th, 2009 at 1:03pm

expat Offline
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 20^th, 2009 at 11:52am:

expat wrote on Feb 19^th, 2009 at 11:51am:

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 19^th, 2009 at 10:55am:

expat wrote on Feb 19^th, 2009 at 5:38am:

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 18^th, 2009 at 3:51pm:

And this is why I like large planes with 3 ply glass laminate.

It in not the three ply glass (though it helps) that stops them coming through but window heating, without that you would probably have the same effect.

Matt

I don't know, the glass used on heavy/wide bodies, is about 3 inches think, pretty strong.

You are right, thick glass is strong, but when it is hit at speed, something had to give. Best that the window frame does not. Window heating, has two functions, the first is to give the pain a little bit of give in the event of a bird strike, a secondary function of window heating is anti icing.

Matt

I am going to have to take a picture of our window at work, I think yours my be built different.

[img]

Not quite sure what you mean here. What I am saying is that window heating as in the elements that you highlighted, the main function is to heat the window and add a small amount of flexibility to the window. It is glass on the outer layers, but acrylic (amongst other compounds) on the inner. It is the heat that gives the inner layers a small amount of flex, enabling it to absorb an impact from a foreign object. There are a couple of videos showing tests from a chicken gun with and without heat. Unfortunately I only saw them when doing a 737 maintenance license. I have trawled youtube and the web, but cannot find them. Ask about at your place of work, maybe they are available.

Matt

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Reply #9 - Feb 20^th, 2009 at 10:56pm

B-Valvs Ex Member

This story reminds me of the Mythbusters Chicken Cannon episode.

Roll Eyes

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Reply #10 - Feb 21^st, 2009 at 7:17am

Ivan Offline
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those 'heater elements' are the wire attachment areas... there are very thin wires running down to the other one at the bottom. Same as on your car rear window heater but way more expensive
heard someone say that a Opel Astra heated windscreen is over 1500 euros, while a normal one is just under 400 euros

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones), Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here

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Reply #11 - Feb 21^st, 2009 at 9:57am

expat Offline
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Ivan wrote on Feb 21^st, 2009 at 7:17am:

those 'heater elements' are the wire attachment areas... there are very thin wires running down to the other one at the bottom. Same as on your car rear window heater but way more expensive
heard someone say that a Opel Astra heated windscreen is over 1500 euros, while a normal one is just under 400 euros

I am not disagreeing, but no aircraft window that I have ever seen or replaced has what you have described. What is highlighted in the above picture is a small wire element that when heated dissipates heat through the window from that element itself and not via wires as in a car. Also all of the elements are not used at once. Half are spare. When the in use elements fail, instead of replacing the window, you can connect the control wire to the spare element (then enter the defective element into the HIL/MDDR)

Matt

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Reply #12 - Feb 21^st, 2009 at 11:03am

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
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On a 737, are they always on? Because our windows are only on as needed by push button. That's why I say it has not effected our windows like you say it does on the 737, we hit birds all the time in the Summer, with the defog off, that's why I don't see how this gives it flex, especial if it is not on 85% of the time to warm the window up during bird strikes.

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Reply #13 - Feb 21^st, 2009 at 1:37pm

expat Offline
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 21^st, 2009 at 11:03am:

On a 737, are they always on? Because our windows are only on as needed by push button. That's why I say it has not effected our windows like you say it does on the 737, we hit birds all the time in the Summer, with the defog off, that's why I don't see how this gives it flex, especial if it is not on 85% of the time to warm the window up during bird strikes.

Looks like I am not making myself clear, and yes on the 737 and A320 it is on all the time. Below are a couple of sites with window heating/bird strike threads.

And here it start at the beginning

7th poster starts the conversation on this subject

I hope this makes what I am trying to say a bit clearer Undecided

Matt

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Reply #14 - Feb 21^st, 2009 at 7:26pm

Ivan Offline
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heater or no heater... those windows arent designed to stop 2 kilo plus birds.

Hitting a fully grown condor or swan (about 12 kilo maximum)with a 737 will probably end up in losing the windows too

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones), Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here

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Reply #15 - Feb 22^nd, 2009 at 5:15am

expat Offline
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Ivan wrote on Feb 21^st, 2009 at 7:26pm:

heater or no heater... those windows arent designed to stop 2 kilo plus birds.

Hitting a fully grown condor or swan (about 12 kilo maximum)with a 737 will probably end up in losing the windows too

That is true, they are designed to stop what is commonly found at airports under 500 feet, where 85% of bird strikes occur. The average bird that strikes an aircraft is in the sparrow and starling size, that being about 8oz believe it or not Shocked

.......When you hit the internet though, you would think that with all the pictures available that it is only eagles, buzzards, condor and pterodactyls that are hitting aircraft Grin

Matt

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Reply #16 - Feb 22^nd, 2009 at 8:26am

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
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expat wrote on Feb 21^st, 2009 at 1:37pm:

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 21^st, 2009 at 11:03am:

On a 737, are they always on? Because our windows are only on as needed by push button. That's why I say it has not effected our windows like you say it does on the 737, we hit birds all the time in the Summer, with the defog off, that's why I don't see how this gives it flex, especial if it is not on 85% of the time to warm the window up during bird strikes.

Looks like I am not making myself clear, and yes on the 737 and A320 it is on all the time. Below are a couple of sites with window heating/bird strike threads.

And here it start at the beginning

7th poster starts the conversation on this subject

I hope this makes what I am trying to say a bit clearer Undecided

Matt

I now see what you are saying, I read both forums, and the FAA report in the link. For what every reason I was thinking you meant that the elements gave rubber band like qualities to the window Tongue

,not that the heat provided the layers with flexibility. That does make sense.

Now with that I can ask: are military windows made of a higher grade material? since they fly higher then all the planes that every one was bringing up, such as 737's and A320's?

It seems like every one was using those 2 planes as the standard, because this happens alot on those planes. I know the C-141 & C-17 both had off switches, and a sensor to worn aircrew of ice build up. And the C-141 had bleed air for it's anti ice. but the C-5, C-17 & C-141 had crazy angles on there windows, compared to commercial planes, as to deflect stuff maybe.

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Reply #17 - Feb 22^nd, 2009 at 9:31am

expat Offline
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2009 at 8:26am:

expat wrote on Feb 21^st, 2009 at 1:37pm:

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Feb 21^st, 2009 at 11:03am:

On a 737, are they always on? Because our windows are only on as needed by push button. That's why I say it has not effected our windows like you say it does on the 737, we hit birds all the time in the Summer, with the defog off, that's why I don't see how this gives it flex, especial if it is not on 85% of the time to warm the window up during bird strikes.

Looks like I am not making myself clear, and yes on the 737 and A320 it is on all the time. Below are a couple of sites with window heating/bird strike threads.

And here it start at the beginning

7th poster starts the conversation on this subject

I hope this makes what I am trying to say a bit clearer Undecided

Matt

I now see what you are saying, I read both forums, and the FAA report in the link. For what every reason I was thinking you meant that the elements gave rubber band like qualities to the window Tongue

,not that the heat provided the layers with flexibility. That does make sense.

Now with that I can ask: are military windows made of a higher grade material? since they fly higher then all the planes that every one was bringing up, such as 737's and A320's?

It seems like every one was using those 2 planes as the standard, because this happens alot on those planes. I know the C-141 & C-17 both had off switches, and a sensor to worn aircrew of ice build up. And the C-141 had bleed air for it's anti ice. but the C-5, C-17 & C-141 had crazy angles on there windows, compared to commercial planes, as to deflect stuff maybe.

Good that we are on the same plane now Grin

As far as military and civilian goes, I would hazard a guess, that they would be on the same sort of standard for a couple of reasons. Producing a military (for example) 737 window and a civilian version, the cost factor of two production runs would be enormous and secondly, military aircraft are flying in the same bird strike window as civilian aircraft, that being on the whole below 500 feet. Civilian on approach as any military aircraft is and then thundering along (fighter) below 500 down to 100 feet. What is interesting, most modern bubble canopy's are plastic and not glass. The days of the armored windshild (F4 or Tornado) are well past. Look at any new-ish fighter and it is bubble from front to rear. My experience (although I left the RAF 10 years ago) is that these sort of windshields are deiced/frosted/fogged by blown air, so I am not sure window heat plays any roll here. If you Google there are a lot of pictures of military aircraft with holes in them C130 bird strike This is a little gruesome, and not for everyone!!
Here is a bubble with some extensive crazing, But it held until the pilot came to a halt

Matt

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Reply #18 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 10:12am

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
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I would imagine that the military version of the Civilian planes would have the same windows. But one thing that was brought up in Myth Busters, was the size of the aircraft, and the operating heights, and speed they travel, the higher they fly, the more reinforce they must be.

C-40 should have the same restriction as a 737, as they are the same plane. But the E-4/VC-25 both have specially made windows that deflect as much radiation as they can due to there nature and mission, so you would not restrict any of those 2 panes to 10,000 feet below a certain speed making them a target.

But on the other hand a C-130 does not typically fly over 30,000 feet up doing over 320kts on a regular basis so it would not need a windshield that can with stand the pressure, like a C-5/17/141 would.

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