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Textures assigned to panels, etc. (Read 1442 times)

Dec 29^th, 2008 at 8:53pm

brettt777 Offline
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If I use an MDL editor/compiler/viewer to look at .mdl files, will I be able to see what texture is assigned where? I'm not really wanting to edit any mdl's; from what I've been told, that is WAY over my head and you're better off starting from scratch and making a new .mdl. I just want to see what texture is suppose to be where, like in a VC.

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Reply #1 - Dec 30^th, 2008 at 7:04am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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If you open a Gmax file within Gmax.. the materials list shows which parts they're applied to... and if the materials are currently in a format that Gmax can "see".. the texturing will show up on the part in the viewport; albeit a very VERY low resolution (almost unuseable.. barely enough to confirm for you that it has been applied)... proper alignment is more a geometry/math problem that you solve before application.

If you just want to sort out a VC texture.. Open and convert it to an editbale format.. add a layer that includes a semi-transparent, color-coded grid.. convert it back to DDS (or whatever it was)... and run the sim..

If you're asking about a program that decompiles MDL files.. I'm not sure. I guess they'd have to be able to decompile them into something editable (like a gmax file).. and then you could open it with that program..

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Reply #2 - Dec 30^th, 2008 at 7:59pm

brettt777 Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 30^th, 2008 at 7:04am:

If you open a Gmax file within Gmax.. the materials list shows which parts they're applied to... and if the materials are currently in a format that Gmax can "see".. the texturing will show up on the part in the viewport; albeit a very VERY low resolution (almost unuseable.. barely enough to confirm for you that it has been applied)... proper alignment is more a geometry/math problem that you solve before application.

If you just want to sort out a VC texture.. Open and convert it to an editbale format.. add a layer that includes a semi-transparent, color-coded grid.. convert it back to DDS (or whatever it was)... and run the sim..

If you're asking about a program that decompiles MDL files.. I'm not sure. I guess they'd have to be able to decompile them into something editable (like a gmax file).. and then you could open it with that program..

What I'm trying to do is see what texture is assigned to what parts of a VC model. I am not sure how adding a layer to a .dds file will do that but I will try it. When assigning textures, can a .dds file be used on top of a .bmp or vice versa? Also, I don't suppose an .mdl file can be converted to a Gmax file somehow, can it?

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Reply #3 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 7:14am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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First open a DDS file with DxtBmp and you can get a pretty good idea of where the texture is mapped.. and to further narrow it down, you apply a grid layer:

Now, obviously that's a quick and dirty grid.. you'd have to take you're time and make one that is more useable.. more detailed and more color coded.. perhaps semi-transparent areas of complete color (as opposed to lines.. or even color-coded dots on specific areas,, whatever it takes to refine your hunt..

Then run the sim and start sorting it out

As for decompiling models.. there is software out there, but I'm not familiar with it.. and have heard it's buggy at best. There are issues converting model source files themselves, from one already uncompiled format to another.. I'd not want to invest my modeling effort, counting ona decompiler... unless there's a specific problem i'm trying to correct.

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Reply #4 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 12:56pm

brettt777 Offline
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So a model surface is assigned a texture when it is constructed, right? I have played with Gmax a bit and done that. When the texture is assigned and then run in a game, does said surface look for the entire texture name including the extention as in textureA.bmp or textureA.dds? Or does it just look for the name and not the extention... like just textureA? Also, can a gauge file be assigned to any kind of texture file like .bmp or .dds? Sorry for all the questions.

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Reply #5 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 2:22pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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brettt777 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 12:56pm:

So a model surface is assigned a texture when it is constructed, right? I have played with Gmax a bit and done that. When the texture is assigned and then run in a game, does said surface look for the entire texture name including the extention as in textureA.bmp or textureA.dds? Or does it just look for the name and not the extention... like just textureA? Also, can a gauge file be assigned to any kind of texture file like .bmp or .dds? Sorry for all the questions.

Yeah.. let's keep the terminolgy straight, though, or it gets confusing in a hurry.

Materials are what get assigned to a part in Gmax..

A "material" is created with the material editor.. It will consist of at least one bitmap (

diffuse

), or as many as three (

diffuse

, spec, bump). It can also have an 'effect' bitmap assigned (fresnel and reflection). Then are also several settings to adjust.. Material editing is a course study unto itself.. but for now, it's just important to know what it is. And to know that the

diffuse

bitmap is like the "master" name.. It's the one FSX looks for when when rendering the model. The associated bitmaps can have any name, but it's easiest to name them similar to the diffuse.. (i.e..

C185_T

will use C_185_T_spec and/or C185_T_bump.. etc.) These extra bitmaps are assigned within the material editor. they're kinda like alpha channels (even though they have their own alpha channels).

Then.. the UVW mapping determines what area of the material ends up on the part; how it's oriented and sized, etc... You can even get more precise, by mapping to specific polygons, instead of the whole part. UVW mapping too, is a course study..

The file naming and file type is pretty straight forward. The extensions aren't important (other than that the be the proper extension for the file-type). The name(s) used in Gmax, must match the names used for the final product. The only difference is file types...

Here's how I do it:

I do all my texture work in a layered PSP file.. then save it as a normal 24bit bitmap, because Gmax can see that when you're applying the material. Then.. when I need to render the model.. I'll change the name of that bitmap, by adding an "x" to the beginning of the name (this keeps FSX from trying to use it). Then, I'll load that "x" file into DxtBmp for adding the alpha channel (the alpha is a regular bitmap with a name that neither Gmax or FSX will look for), and save it as an extended (DXT5)bitmap using the original file name, but with a "z" at the beginning of the name (this again allows me to keep it in the texture folder and FSX will not try to use it). THEN.. I load the "z" file into ImageTool and convert it into a DDS file and save IT under the regular file name. THAT'S how FSX will find the proper DDS file to use..

Confused yet ? Cheesy

Cheesy

Here's a little flow-chart:

C185_T.bmp

(as saved from PSP) for use while modeling.

Rename it

xC185_T.bmp

when I'm ready to look at the model in FSX.

xC185_T.bmp

gets loaded into DxtBmp where C185_T_alpha.bmp is added as the alpha-channel, and then saved as

zC185_T.bmp

in DXT5 format. (quick note.. THIS format is seen by FSX, so you can save the next step until you REALLY want to test things)(just don't add the "z" to the name).

Load

zC185_T.bmp

into ImageTool and save as

C185_T.dds

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Reply #6 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 2:22pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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brettt777 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 12:56pm:

So a model surface is assigned a texture when it is constructed, right? I have played with Gmax a bit and done that. When the texture is assigned and then run in a game, does said surface look for the entire texture name including the extention as in textureA.bmp or textureA.dds? Or does it just look for the name and not the extention... like just textureA? Also, can a gauge file be assigned to any kind of texture file like .bmp or .dds? Sorry for all the questions.

FSX looks for a specific filename, but has a set priority order when it searches for texture extensions:

1. DDS
2. BMP

Also, there's a specific folder order search:

1. livery's folder ..\aircraftname\texture.n
2. root folder of a/c ..\aircraftname\texture
3. default FSX folder ..\FSX\Texture

Gauges in a virtual cockpit are displayed on "dynamicaly created textures." If you look in the panel.cfg file at the VCockpitnn entries, you'll see that they use textures who's names have a $ prefix (such as $VC_01 or such).

In order to use the 'grid overlay trick' with the actual gauge projections, you would need to create a 24bit .bmp file, place it in the ..\panel folder, and edit the panel.cfg file to add an entry to each VCockpit entry like this, and comment out (//) the actual gauge definitions so they won't cover up the 24bit overlay:
Code:

//--------------------------------------------------------
[Vcockpit01]
file_1024=CII_VC_01.bmp // 24bit .bmp file in the ../panel.nn folder
size_mm=1024,1024
visible=0
pixel_size=1024,1024
texture=$CII_VC_01

//gauge00=escitII_variables!escxvariavles, 1,0,1,1
//gauge01=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_Preflight, 0,0,1,1,ESDG\Cessna Citation II SP2 1.5\CII_Preflight
//gauge02=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_Elec2, 1,799,625,138
//gauge03=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_Airspeed, 577,174,220,218
//gauge04=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_AP_ModeSelector, 1,462,400,157

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #7 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 2:32pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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That's an interesting work flow, Brett. I use a somewhat simpler one myself:

1. Use Photoshop or PSP to maintain the layered master(s) as .PSD type files.

2. Assign the filename.psd file in Max/GMax

3a. Flip Vertically, then use the nVidea plugin with Photoshop to export .DDS files directly for FSX consumption.

3b. Use Imagetool to convert PSP .PSD files directly to .DDS for FSX consumption. Imagetool performs the Flip Vertically automatically.

Bill
Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...

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Reply #8 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 2:35pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Yeah.. lol My way might be more clumsy.. but it's like a strict routine.. keeps me from messing things up (like fighting to find a chrome recipe, and realizing that FSX has not been using each tweak I add, because I got lazy in the re-naming regiment..

Embarrassed

Embarrassed

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Reply #9 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 4:25pm

brettt777 Offline
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Fr. Bill wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 2:22pm:

brettt777 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 12:56pm:

So a model surface is assigned a texture when it is constructed, right? I have played with Gmax a bit and done that. When the texture is assigned and then run in a game, does said surface look for the entire texture name including the extention as in textureA.bmp or textureA.dds? Or does it just look for the name and not the extention... like just textureA? Also, can a gauge file be assigned to any kind of texture file like .bmp or .dds? Sorry for all the questions.

FSX looks for a specific filename, but has a set priority order when it searches for texture extensions:

1. DDS
2. BMP

Also, there's a specific folder order search:

1. livery's folder ..\aircraftname\texture.n
2. root folder of a/c ..\aircraftname\texture
3. default FSX folder ..\FSX\Texture

Gauges in a virtual cockpit are displayed on "dynamicaly created textures." If you look in the panel.cfg file at the VCockpitnn entries, you'll see that they use textures who's names have a $ prefix (such as $VC_01 or such).

In order to use the 'grid overlay trick' with the actual gauge projections, you would need to create a 24bit .bmp file, place it in the ..\panel folder, and edit the panel.cfg file to add an entry to each VCockpit entry like this, and comment out (//) the actual gauge definitions so they won't cover up the 24bit overlay:
Code:

//--------------------------------------------------------
[Vcockpit01]
file_1024=CII_VC_01.bmp // 24bit .bmp file in the ../panel.nn folder
size_mm=1024,1024
visible=0
pixel_size=1024,1024
texture=$CII_VC_01

//gauge00=escitII_variables!escxvariavles, 1,0,1,1
//gauge01=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_Preflight, 0,0,1,1,ESDG\Cessna Citation II SP2 1.5\CII_Preflight
//gauge02=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_Elec2, 1,799,625,138
//gauge03=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_Airspeed, 577,174,220,218
//gauge04=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_AP_ModeSelector, 1,462,400,157

About the panel.cfg Vcockpit thing...Why does it say a file name and then a texture name? What's the difference? Which one of them is actualy the texture, er sorry, MATERIAL that is assigned to a surface on the model? And why do some Vcockpit entries have a texture but no file name and some don't have anything?

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Reply #10 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 4:30pm

brettt777 Offline
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brettt777 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 4:25pm:

Fr. Bill wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 2:22pm:

brettt777 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 12:56pm:

So a model surface is assigned a texture when it is constructed, right? I have played with Gmax a bit and done that. When the texture is assigned and then run in a game, does said surface look for the entire texture name including the extention as in textureA.bmp or textureA.dds? Or does it just look for the name and not the extention... like just textureA? Also, can a gauge file be assigned to any kind of texture file like .bmp or .dds? Sorry for all the questions.

FSX looks for a specific filename, but has a set priority order when it searches for texture extensions:

1. DDS
2. BMP

Also, there's a specific folder order search:

1. livery's folder ..\aircraftname\texture.n
2. root folder of a/c ..\aircraftname\texture
3. default FSX folder ..\FSX\Texture

Gauges in a virtual cockpit are displayed on "dynamicaly created textures." If you look in the panel.cfg file at the VCockpitnn entries, you'll see that they use textures who's names have a $ prefix (such as $VC_01 or such).

In order to use the 'grid overlay trick' with the actual gauge projections, you would need to create a 24bit .bmp file, place it in the ..\panel folder, and edit the panel.cfg file to add an entry to each VCockpit entry like this, and comment out (//) the actual gauge definitions so they won't cover up the 24bit overlay:
Code:

//--------------------------------------------------------
[Vcockpit01]
file_1024=CII_VC_01.bmp // 24bit .bmp file in the ../panel.nn folder
size_mm=1024,1024
visible=0
pixel_size=1024,1024
texture=$CII_VC_01

//gauge00=escitII_variables!escxvariavles, 1,0,1,1
//gauge01=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_Preflight, 0,0,1,1,ESDG\Cessna Citation II SP2 1.5\CII_Preflight
//gauge02=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_Elec2, 1,799,625,138
//gauge03=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_Airspeed, 577,174,220,218
//gauge04=ESDG_Citation II!CitationII_AP_ModeSelector, 1,462,400,157

About the panel.cfg Vcockpit thing...Why does it say a file name and then a texture name? What's the difference? Which one of them is actualy the texture, er sorry, MATERIAL that is assigned to a surface on the model? And why do some Vcockpit entries have a texture but no file name and some don't have anything?

On the file name thing, if it doesn't really care about the extention then I could theoretically replace a .dds file with a .bmp of the same name and it should use it instead or does it have to have the .dds file? What is the difference of using a .dds file for a material as opposed to a .bmp?

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Reply #11 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 5:01pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Quote:

On the file name thing, if it doesn't really care about the extention then I could theoretically replace a .dds file with a .bmp of the same name and it should use it instead or does it have to have the .dds file? What is the difference of using a .dds file for a material as opposed to a .bmp?

Which "it" do you mean ?
Gmax cant see DDS files or extended bitmaps.. you cant add them to a material, nor see them while modeling.

FSX can't see regular bitmaps (FS9 could see 8bit ones if I remember right).. they have to be extended bitmaps, or DDS files for use in FSX.

The extensions ARE important in regards to file type.. (FSX sees DDS and realizes it doesn't have to "flip" it (DDS files need to be pre-flipped (ImagrTool does that for you).

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Reply #12 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 5:53pm

brettt777 Offline
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So which file type of "material" is it that gauges can be attatched to? I see .bmp's used but can .dds files be used as well? I see some that all the textures in the texture folder are.dds files, but then the files listed in the panel.cfg are all .bmp. So that's the only ones that be assigned gauges? And if it is, what kind of .bmp's are they...16 bit, 24 bit or some other special thing?

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Reply #13 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 6:26pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Ok.. now you're going off on a tangent.. Lemme 'splain

All of the "textures" (they're textures after the model is compiled)(materials in Gmax), in the Texture folder are for the 3D model.

The bitmaps in the panel folder are 2D images for the 2D panel.. they have nothing to do with the VC . The VC is as much a model as the plane itself. It's 3-dimensional and needs to be textured.

Now, you've opened up another topic that will complicate things... so here goes..lol

The gauges in a VC are indeed, kinda "attached" to a bitmap. But you'll never see that bitmap in finished model. It's a bitmap in the truest "map" sense of the word. The gauges are made into a material, and mapped onto the gauge polygons. It's strange process that we'll leave mysterious for now. You'll have your hands full figuring out materials and mapping for regular modeling.

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Reply #14 - Dec 31^st, 2008 at 7:42pm

brettt777 Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 6:26pm:

All of the "textures" (they're textures after the model is compiled)(materials in Gmax), in the Texture folder are for the 3D model.

The bitmaps in the panel folder are 2D images for the 2D panel.. they have nothing to do with the VC . The VC is as much a model as the plane itself. It's 3-dimensional and needs to be textured.

So does that mean that the VC will only look at bmp's or dds's in the texture folder and never look at the panel folder at all?

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