I have again visited in this days some sites and read some forums about the Air War over Korea.The sensations and reactions are quite different but , something had deffinitively changed.
After the open of archives of Russia from 1990s, the new way and some open politics of China , a lot of informations and publications are now available in the west. New books, articles , infomations are now available year after year. To the 1990, the only informations available were from West origin, mainly USAF , and very few from the other side , from the "Bad guys of the film"
Of course , one way version are always quite limited and that had give from some 40 years a near only version of the Korean Air War.
Today we know , the things were quite different and some "Mythes or legendes" of the Korean Air War are definitively out of date and wrong. Propaganda in the both sides was very strong in this early times of the Cold War and that had gived us a lot of miss-informations, manipulations of medias and others.
Things were quitte easy at the west, because Soviet Union , or today Russia had no admitted his participations in this war. A free way was offer to the writters and authors of the west and the historic only version was builded in this way , that mean, one way , one version. Russian and Chinese had nothing to say in this 50 years, the first different words come by 1990 , the seconds from China in this last years.
Today we have two versions, and that arm sometimes the strong defenders of the builded "official "version of the last 50 years,  sensitivities are quite vulnerable to all this new flow of available informations, sometimes taking to nothing and destroying and taking to near ridiculous some versions of the "old history" of the Korean Air War.

Some examples:

-The first kill by Russel Brown with his F-80C the 08-11-50 .Well, today is confirmed , Brown had hit only with his one 12.7mm the MiG-15 of St Lt Kharitonov of the 72th IAP(All his other five MG were jammed).
Kharitonov was slight wounded in one leg but landed safely at Anshan and his slightly damaged MiG was repaired. The explossion, fire , and others saw by Brown was the impact of the drop tanks in the ground(There were very few drop tanks for the MiGs in this early time and the consign was to drop the tanks only in extreme situations).

Actually the very first MiG kill is for the US Navy, the next day, 09-11-50 , when  William T.Amen in a F9F-2B Panther of the VF-111 had shot down the MiG-15 of M. Grachev of the 139th GIAP.

-Other legend, definitively erased . the combat of the 22-12-50 between the F-86 of the 4th FIW and the MiGs of the 177th IAP.The 4th FIW had claimed 6 kills in this mission and for 50 years was the version in all West books. Unlike for the USAF , was only a severe overclaim, true, in good faith, but overclaims definitively.
After lossing the F-86A 49-1176 of  Lawrence Bach in the morning , shot down by Nikolai Vorobyev of 177th IAP , the combat of the afternoon had gived a victory for the USAF, but , only 2 MiGs were shot down and not six. John Meyer hit the MiG of St Lt Barsegyan, and the jet explode killing the pilot, Glenn T. Eagleston succed shoting down the MiG-15 of St Lt Zub , this last eject succefully of his jet but was wounded in his legs after his impact on ground. Zub was repatried back to Soviet Union.A third MiG was hit by six 12.7mm bullets but this MiG and the other five MiGs returned safely to Anshan.The Russian make claims in this combat for three F-86A, but actually all 16 F-86A of the 4th FIW returned safely to Kimpo.
The 22-12-50 was certainly a clear victory of the USAF , 2 MiGs for one F-86, but that margin was no so great. The USAF based publications writte after this version "Not more MiG were sighted in the rest of the month after this combat" . Again False and manipulated informations. MiG flew missions the 24, 26 , 27, 28, 29 and 30 december and sumitted victory claims for:
-24-12-50 29th GIAP S.Naumenko: One F-86A Donald K.George(336th FIS)KIA USAF.One F-84E R.Bacom KIA 27thFEW 49-2422 USAF
177 IAP, 50 IAD      Belikov F-86      USAF(Overclaim)
177 IAP, 50 IAD      Kobzev F-86      USAF(Overclaim)
-27-déc-1950      177 IAP, 50 IAD      Grechisko      F-86 USAF(Overclaim)
177 IAP, 50 IAD      Fomin      F-80C Harrison Jacobs- POW 25 FIS,USAF(Confirmed)
177 IAP, 50 IAD      Tishenko      F-80 USAF(overclaim)            
177 IAP, 50 IAD      Andryushin / Kormilkin F-80 USAF(overclaim)
-29-déc-1950      29 GIAP, 50 IAD D. I. Orlov      F-80C James Clayberg - MIA 8 FBS, USAF(Confirmed)
29 GIAP, 50 IAD      F-80C 80 FBS, USAF
-30-déc-1950      29 GIAP, 50 IAD      S. M. Lyubimov F-86 pilot KIA

Actually the first Ace, after Soviet records, Stephan Naumenko was crowned the 24-12-50, several months before James Jabara of the 4th FIW.

1950 close with eight MiG losses for the V-VS after his combat debut the 01-11-50. Claims by the USAF were for the same periode 16 MiGs. Actually the losses were: 2 by F9F Panthers(VF-111 and VF-31) 3 by F-86A 4th FIW, 2 by F-80C(Clyde J. Whaley 51th FIW the 11-11-50, 7th FBS the 07-12-50),and 1 by B-29 the 06-12-50(29th GIAP St Lt Serikov).Three MiGs were damaged in december, the jets of Bondarenko and Yurkevitch of the 29th GIAP the 19th and 21th of december respectively, and the MiG-15 of Lyubimov, also from 29th GIAP the 30-12-50 after a combat with the 4th FIW F-86A of Paul E. Pugh.
Chinese jet pilots(PLAAF) and North Korean(KPAFAC)were in this early periode in training by the Russian, near all combat operations with MiGs to July 1951 were flew by the V-VS(Soviet Air Force).The PLAAF start his timide debut in January 1951 but too rookie and green to support combat operations and after a bad debut he continued the training process.His first limited combat missions under the guide of the Russian veteran were flight by July 1951. The first KPAFAC MiGs pilots start operations in the latter 1952 and early 1953.

-Other Mythe to erased, the combat of the 12-04-51. A know author in the Korean Air War had writted "It proved  to be a costly learning experience  for the communist pilots , who lost ten of their numbers within minutes".
Very pity a comentary of this type, but this author, had a great merite also, in his last publications he consult, investigate a read informations of the "other side", and included this informations and citations in his excelentes books. Another well known author , had take the way of refuse to accept the new reality and continued with the old version, "one way" of the history.

Coming back to the 12-04-51, in reality the "costly learning experience " were for the USAF this day."Officially" 3 B-29 were shot down, actually 4 were shot down over the target area by the cracks pilots of the 176th GIAP and 196th IAP , a fifth B-29s was hit and damaged ,and his crew bailed out over the Yellow sea and five others B-29s heavy damaged make emergency landing at Kimpo and others airfields, too damaged to return to Okinawa. Also in the packet, the MiGs bagged two F-80Cs. USAF speak about "100 MiGs", in reality they were 44. And the MiG losses?
Well, that is the point in this serious defeat , claims were for some incredible 10 MiGs (4 by the F-86A of the 4th FIW, 6 by the B-29s); actually only one MiGs was shot down by James Jabara(176th GIAP)and one second of 176th, Blue 823 was medium damaged(C/N 108023).Three other MiGs were slight damaged within 2 to 7 12.7mm bullets hits.

In reality , the B-29s was of the planes most hated and unpopular in the USAF and crews were sometimes very pesimist about his possibilities of ended his operative tour and critic about the utilisation of the type of obsolete bomber in the Korean theater.The 12th April was the first warning, and the second and last was the "Black Tuesday". After the 23-10-51, and after the terrible losses in B-29 by MiGs, this bomber was switched definitively to limited night operations.

The F-84E Thunderjet play mainly his role as fighter bomber but by January 1951 and with the F-86 based out of Korea in Japan after the retreat from Kimpo, the 27th FEW had the oportunity to measure his skills with the MiGs.The 27th FEW was a Air Superiority unit from the SAC, trained to fighter and escort operations and was one of the predilect units and "sons" of Curtis LeMay. LeMay was very reluctant to send the 27th FEW to Korea and then very early he had insisted to have the unit back to USA.In May 1951 the unit ended his operation tour and was recalled to USA, his place was taked by the 136th FBG.

The first claims of the 27th FEW were for a MiG-15 the 21 January 1951 by William E. Bertram. Actually, not MiG was loss this day.Two day latter in another mission near Sinuiju, the 27th FEW had more luck and this time the F-84s were intercepted by some MiGs of the 29th GIAP, 177th IAP and the rookies of the PLAAF 7R, 4D in his first operative mission.
That was not really very heroic to the experimented pilots of the 27th FEW to shot down 2 MiGs of the PLAAF 7R 4D, his chinese pilots lacked absolutly of experience. A third MiG, a V-VS of the 29th GIAP was shot down by William W. Slaughter. His pilot  G.Grebenkin was killed in the MiG.The MiG of Kapt Popov in the process of protect the rookies of the PLAAF was hit but succed to return to Antung. His MiG too damaged was scrapped.
Claims by 27th FEW were in January for 6 MiGs and one Yak-9.Actual losses were 3 MiGs(1 V-VS, 2 PLAAF) and the Yak-9.We can count also the scrapped MiG of Popov.
In reality , to be clear, the score of the USAF pilots start to improve when more and more fresh trained PLAAF pilots enter combat operations.In 1951 the better month for the F-86 was 20 MiGs destroyed in december(Claims were for 28 MiGs by the USAF and RAAF). Of this 20 MiGs destroyed , 12 were from the V-VS and 8 PLAAF.
In June 1953, the best month in MiG-15 kills claims with the improved F-86F with the new wings the claims were for 77 MiGs destroyed.Actually the number , less overclaims is a quite impresive 64 MiG losses. Of this number , 21 were MiGs of the V-VS and 43 were MiGs of the PLAAF.
James Jabara, a excelent fighter pilot, alone he shot down 5 MiGs of the PLAAF this month, a excelent time to improved scores with so many fresh rookies chinese pilots in the MiGs.That was some like the "Mariannes Turkey Shoot". Already the sole PLAAF victory of the month was scored the 4th June, one F-86F of the 51th FIW(51-2838 John E. King 51th FIW 25 FIS, USAF).
The Russian of the V-VS scored in thiis month of June 1953 22 kills: 17 F-86(14 admitted by the USAF), 3 F-84G, 1 F-84E and one F-94B.
Interesant to compare June 1951 with all MiG operated by Russian pilots, and June 1953 with much of the MiGs flew by the young chinese pilots.

June 1951- 6 MiG losses(USAF claims by F-86 and B-29 were 10).Officially Losses 2 F-86 , 7 total with operational losses.
Funny , claims by the MiGs for the month were exactly 7 F-86!!!. Also shot down by MiGs in June 1951, 5 F-80C, 4 F-51D(One SAAF)and one B-29.

Really, in the history must read and look and all directions in the search of the last autentic near real version.                        

Yes, that was a under UN directives. But I think the most big mistake made in this war with the avail of the UN, was to cross the 38th paralell after the Inchon landings, the near defeat of the North Korean Army and continued to the north, and don't listen the multiple warnings of China.If Inchon was a great move of MacArthur, continued to the North to reunification of the land under the West rules was a very bad move under the circunstances of this time. That had boosted the entry of China in the war and the prolongation of this war to July 1953. Had the UN troops stooped at the 38th Parallel after Inchon, and signed at Armistice like in 1953 and was finally the same. North Korea was finnished as militar power by October 1950.Armistice in 1950 and not entry of war with China, and for us, the aviation fans, no MiGs!!!!. Yes, really a big mistake, I can very good undestand the commentary and the look of Mark Clark when he had signed the Armistice in 1953. All this efforts, lives, destructions, money,etc for near of nothing.            

Already over the Red Star theme , I have played the campaign this week-end and have enjoyed it. Only I have changed a par of things for my personnel taste and use , because I know quite well the MiG-15 and MiG-15bis.
-Separate cannons and switches for the NS-23 and N-37 like in the real thing.Revised fire rate.
-Revised ammo , 80 for each 23mm , and 40 for the 37mm also like the real one. The KWCFS2_MIG15AI_T assigned as MiG-15bis ,that mean NR-23 cannons with slight high fire rate and some more extra 900 lbs of power in the VK-1 engine(5004 lbs for the RD-45F amd 5952 for the VK-1)
-Revised "punch", one 37mm hit was enough to bring down a F-86. Now is OK.
-Fuel capacity revised, the capacity was 384 gals for the MiG-15 and 368 for the MiG-15bis.
-Zero weight revised in both models, wing area, horizontal Stabilizer  area, vertical stabilizer area, all control surfaces.The stall speed was very gentle in the original and now after revision is near of the real one and maybe more dangerous in some conditions.Must handly with care in the stick and caution with the spins.

After some good number of flights in campaign and QC with the MiG-15 I have started the Hunter Campaign and well, well... The F-86E , ummm,sorry, is only my personnel opinion, but that flight like a B-17. The turn radius is too big. If the historical one had this maneuver capacity in Korea, today we speaking of 782 F-86 for 5 MiGs. .With the MiG is really too easy to shot down this F-86E because this last had the capaticy of maneuver of a brick, and that with the easy stalls of the MiG.And is also very slow.
The E and also the A were more fastest as the MiG at medium altitude and low altitude(Under 15.000-20.000 ft).In general MiG pilots searched the combat en altitude(Advantage for the MiG) and the F-86s trying to push the MiGs to low altitude(Advantage for the F-86). In QC combat with his usuall low altitudes is near impossible to go in pursuit behind a MiG with the E. Well, I have also corrected this one, the control surfaces were too big, stall speed to low and some other things like the fire rate of the M3s.
Now is better and the MiG can be shot-down with the E with reasonable efforts.
All test were done with ACE at QC, Hard Flight Model, normal weapons effectiveness .Control sensitivities Null zone all way left.Realism 95%(G effects off).
Hagar if you like to have a copy of the Air and DP files for test send me a message.
Thanks for the great job done for the community.      

Great post Guys. Over claims happen to all AirForces Pilots of every Airforce throughout history. This also happen in World war two often.

What really bother me is that Aviation Historian in general have taken official records of some Airforces including the USA as golden document of truth.

The truth is we all should be more critical and more vigilant and open minded when writting about claims made by any organization.

James007

Hey Pepelyayev, if you can change things for the better in flight modelling and the rest, then good luck to you.
I spent a lot of time trying to get the right information, trying to understand airfiles, trying to get people to join in and help. And in the end I just had to roll up my sleeves and do it myself because no-one else would do it. And if I hadn't done it, there would be no Korean war campaigns for CFS1 or CFS2, however innaccurate they might be.
"Creating a flavour of the times" was always my get-out clause
So if my airfiles are wrong, then you should know that I did warn everyone that I didn't know what I was doing, and if they knew better, then fix it.
So go ahead, buddy, fix it.

I think my panels were pretty awesome though.

Indioblack:

For the MiG-15

[GUNSTATIONS]
gunstation.0=0,9,1,0.109,690,2,0.01,700,5,40,1d1*58,0,-0.2,3.5,359,0,0,0,0,0,0,7
.031
gunstation.1=1,4,2,0.150,690,2,0.06,700,6,40,1d1*216,0,0,0,359,0,0,0,0,0,0,26.47
5
gunstation.2=3,21,8,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

[guns.0]
gun.0=80,-0.27,-0.38,0.13,0,0,1,80
gun.1=80,-0.39,-0.27,0.52,0,0,1,80

[guns.1]
gun.0=40,0.29,-0.59,4.00,0,0,1,40

[guns.2]
gun.0=2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

For the MiG-15bis

[GUNSTATIONS]
gunstation.0=0,9,1,0.075,680,2,0.01,700,5,40,1d1*58,0,-0.2,3.5,359,0,0,0,0,0,0,7
.031
gunstation.1=1,4,2,0.150,690,2,0.06,700,6,40,1d1*216,0,0,0,359,0,0,0,0,0,0,26.47
5
gunstation.2=3,21,8,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

[guns.0]
gun.0=80,-0.27,-0.38,0.13,0,0,1,80
gun.1=80,-0.39,-0.27,0.52,0,0,1,80

[guns.1]
gun.0=40,0.29,-0.59,4.00,0,0,1,40

[guns.2]
gun.0=2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

That´s the info for the DP files, The main difference is the improved rate of fire of the NR-23(MiG-15bis)compared with the NS-23 in the MiG-15.

Deja Vu!

I can't believe I'm seeing Hagar and Indio discussing Korean campaigns!

Am I in the Twilight Zone?   Have I been transported back in time?

I'm lovin' it!

Tango_Romeo wrote on Jun 16^th, 2009 at 10:45pm:


bout time those two got back on the trolley, they've had a long enough holiday. Now lets see if we can snag Hayden.

regards  Collin