Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
i7 Preliminary Thoughts and Suggestions around FSX (Read 1321 times)
Nov 26th, 2008 at 12:00pm

NickN   Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317
*****
 

Just passing on some info about i7 to clear up some things and to throw FSX data into the mix for the platform.

I am being very conservative in reporting this as to avoid hype. 

I have not had time to complete all my checks and test however I do have enough information to relay a few things so those who may be on the fence about buying or wish to upgrade have good information to base their decision.


First and foremost, in making the decision to move to i7 you need to look at what you are running today and what you are willing to spend.

If you are on AMD, old Intel and/or not running modern Intel,  moving to i7 will be a good boost and investment for you. Do be aware that if you intend to clock it will be easier to hit higher clocks and better latency on 940 and DDR3 1600 memory. Moving to 920 from AMD and not clocking will still provide a worthwhile boost but you should consider the 940 if clocking is not on your to-do list so you get the full monty in the upgrade over what you are use to seeing.

And do keep in mind, moving to i7 on a slower video card is going to present a bottleneck just like it does with current processors so if you are on AMD with a budget video card, you should upgrade that card too at the same time.

If you are on Intel Quad and not clocking and you run 2.8-3GHz the 940 unclocked will provide a much smoother experience with better visuals. It would not be a wise investment to buy 920 and not clock it. You could buy the 920 but do be aware you will need to clock it to be assured of good value in perf upgrade for your purchase and the video card suggestion with AMD is the same. If you are going to make that move and currently have a medium quality card you would be well served to upgrade the card at the same time.


If you are on Intel and running a 3.6-4+GHz clock on DDR3 1600+ correctly then the move to i7 should be based on:

1. At least a 940 i7
2. At least 1600MHz memory 8-8-8 timing for 6GB, 7-7-7 timing for 3GB
3. A proper HSF for clocking
4. Plan on clocking the 940 to at least 3.8-4+GHz

With those elements in place you can expect to see results I consider well worth the purchase.

Of course everyone has their own opinion about what is valuable to them in FSX cost wise. Some are statisifed with less scenery and are not willing to pay for perks.

Being conservative here... DO KEEP IN MIND that if you are currently on such a high end system properly clocked and your scenery sliders are maxed what you will be getting is less or no stutters, sharper visuals under the conditions you may typically see now where your current hardware limits are seen on the screen. It will allow higher default traffic as well as allowing bloom to be run closer to urban (major hubs can be a hit) however DO NOT expect to max every slider (water-bloom-traffic-cloud radius) and see no perf hit. Bloom and water shader passes are a 800lb gorilla on DX9 no matter what CPU is in use and clouds will always hit a system hard the way FSX is designed.

Heavy iron users will see great relief under those clocking conditions.

What I am seeing personally is worth every penney spent because I do not like stutters and lags. Flying to me is all about that floating on air feeling without interruptions in lags and blurs.

The pro clockers are getting the 920 up to 4.2-4.3GHz however they are doing so by pushing the absolute limits. They are also experimenting with engineering samples to find out how long those chips last when the memory voltage is exceeded (over 1.65v) and other voltages are pushed.

Other thoughts to consider.. there are those on 32bit OS’s that can only use 4GB of memory. Be aware that if you skimp and go 3x1GB you will be limited to well under 3GB where with 3x2GB you will have access to up to 3.2GB of the first 4.

If this purchase is one you intend to grow with I suggest 3x2GB. The price difference is only about 100 dollars or less and prices should start to fall as more product enters the market over the next several months. You can upgrade to a 64bit OS later and make full use of the 6GB then.


You MUST purchase tri-channel DDR3 memory kits with a voltage rating of 1.65v. 1st generation higher voltage spec DDR3 will NOT work with i7.


For a good modern video card and i7 with clocking I would suggest a decent 750watts PSU to cover you now and later for upgrades. The PC Power and Cooling 750 is a great unit and right now it can be purchased for under 100 dollars with a rebate. That PSU was 230 when it was first released a few years ago and it will run up to and over 800watts at peaks.

SLi will not get any gain from i7 in FSX other than what SLi provides now in higher resolution high AA (16-32AA) and above 2xxx in resolution.


If you do not intend to clock, 1333MHz memory is fine and you do not need 1600 product however depending on the BIOS of the board you can use 1600 product without clocking the CPU and run the memory higher at its rated speed. The ability to do so depends on the board and BIOS and I do not have specific information about different boards to relay at this time.

The important factor about the memory in a clocking or non-clocking situation is the timing. Do shop for the lowest timing possible for the speed you wish to run as that will help even with i7.



...and one other thing too, DO keep in mind this is a new platform and as such there are going to be growing pains so what you see on websites and review sites can be skewed by different chipset registers from different combinations of motherboards, video cards, memory and drivers in use. It will probably be a few months before all that gets hammered out as it is with any new platform.


I hope this helps clear up some of the questions that are floating around. I am still very much in a test phase with the system I am using and as I get more I will pass it on with a much more technical approach.

I am also toying with memory clocks as well so there is more to report later as I confirm results.


Remember, that older video card you are running can hold you back with a i7 in clock. As Phil Taylor pointed out a long time ago the mate between the card and the proc will drive FSX perf and quality more than anything else with memory speed/timing coming in 2nd.


Suggstions for minimum cards for FSX

NOTE: these are not suggestions for Crysis

920 not clocked, 8800GT
940 not clocked 260GTX
965 not clocked 280GTX

clock'em maxed and the 280 would be the card to be on

Those on the 8800 Ultra and 768 GTX and clocking can probaby hold on the video card if the budget doesnt support it right away but it would still be worthwile to go up to the 280 (or better if it comes along later) in your case.



 
IP Logged
 
Reply #1 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 12:13pm

ShaneG   Offline
Colonel
I turned into a Martian!

Posts: 10000
*****
 
NickN wrote on Nov 26th, 2008 at 12:00pm:
those who may be on the fence about buying or wish to upgrade have good information to base their decision.



If you are on AMD, or not running modern Intel,  moving to i7 will be a good boost and investment for you.  Moving to 920 from AMD and not clocking will still provide a worthwhile boost but you should consider the 940 if clocking is not on your to-do list so you get the full monty in the upgrade over what you are use to seeing.

And do keep in mind, moving to i7 on a slower video card is going to present a bottleneck just like it does with current processors so if you are on AMD with a budget video card, you should upgrade that card too at the same time.


Well, that description fits me. Smiley I know what I want for Christmas now! Grin
Thanks Nick! Smiley I'm glad I waited to upgrade now. Wink
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #2 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 4:35pm

wsciutti   Offline
Colonel
Fly Anytime!
Chesterfield, VA

Gender: male
Posts: 92
*****
 
Nick,

Thank you!!! I am currently on an E6600 P5B, 8800GT, 2Mb Corsair 800 RAM, CPU running at 2.7( after much testing, the best on my rig; I was unable to stable 400 cpu speed). I followed ALL your suggestions and can run 30FPS locked with moderate visuals and smooth except at 400KIAS at 1000' in the F18 which does blurry.

When the budget allows next year, I hope to follow your suggestions and go with the 940 and an upgrade video card.

Many thanks for sharing your experience; I had fun learning how to OC and did use OCCT, etc.

Jack S (senior citizen)
Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #3 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 5:18pm

Flight Ace   Offline
Colonel
I Fly Sim!
Virginia

Gender: male
Posts: 205
*****
 
Nick,

Thanks for the comprehensive overview of the i7 as it pertains to FSX. I don’t plan on upgrading soon but am engaged in preparing a design for when I do. Your information will be most helpful in selecting the right components. And, who knows, by the time that FS11 is released, technology may have progressed a step further with some new alternatives to both CPUs and video cards. Anyway my thoughts about i7 are expressed below.

The search goes on for the computer that can achieve the best performance and visuals with FSX. The fact remains that FSX software was written for a high-end computer with the latest upscale single core processor and video card running on windows XP. FSX updates extended compatibility to multi-core processors improving performance, but by only a small margin. Computers with Dual, Quad, now Quad i7 cores, are designed for a multitude of software applications including FSX.  However, FSX will remain only minimally designed for them. Right now, early reports reference the new i7 core CPU, gives it high marks for running FSX on Vista. Not sure about XP.

This is not to say that FSX doesn’t run smooth with outstanding performance and visuals with some earlier computer setups. Since upgrading my PC a year ago, I have enjoyed smooth flights with good visuals and performance throughout the world. No need for i7. I just hope that FS11 will be fully compatible with the current multi-core processors. For me, I’m waiting for it to come out to determine if another upgrade will be necessary. Also, by that time, newer hardware may be in the offering. When I do make the change I will be switching to Vista.
 

1.   Chaser MK-1 Full Tower ATX Computer Case
2.   Core i7 3770K 1155 Processor OC to 4.7 GHz
3.   ASUS Maximus V Gene Motherboard
4.   EVGA GTX580 1536MB Video Card
5.   16 GB C8 G.SKILL Low Profile RAM
6.   Noctua NH-D14 CPU Cooler
7.   240 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD
8.   120 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD
9.   1 TB Backup Drive
10. Samsung TOC 26 inch Monitor
IP Logged
 
Reply #4 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 5:21pm

a1   Offline
Colonel
Tied In A Knot I Am

Gender: male
Posts: 8217
*****
 
Great info Nick. Thanks for the heads up. Wink
 

...
790i : QX9650 : 4Gb DDR3 : GeForce 8800 GTX : 1 WD Raptor : 1 WD VelociRaptor 150
IP Logged
 
Reply #5 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 6:50pm

FlightTime   Offline
Captain
Fly FS

Posts: 3
***
 
I have a very smooth FSX quad system at 4Ghz.

Anyway you can post some full size screen shots with location details showing the sharpness/detail differences your seeing with a i7, or frame rate graphs comparing a properly setup core system vs the i7?

I've been thinking the differences would be very small if any at 4GHz on either setup if the setup is optimized, but if your seeing clear advantages I love to see examples to motivate upgrading Smiley





 
IP Logged
 
Reply #6 - Nov 27th, 2008 at 9:22am

Dutch60   Offline
Colonel
Please upload all images
to SimV!
Netherlands

Gender: male
Posts: 33
*****
 
Hi Nick,

Thanks for the Core i7 performance update.

Holding on to my FX55 and 2x6800Ultra while waiting for my new water cooled Core i7 to arrive before Christmas.

Computer
Case: Lian Li PC TYR PC-X2000
PSU: Corsair HX1000 1000W
CPU: Intel Core-i7 965 XE Extreme Edition 3.2GHz overclock 4.0GHz
MOBO: Asus ROG Rampage II Extreme
Memory 12GB: 2x OCZ OCZ3G1600LV6GK Gold 6GB(3x2GB) DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz CAS 8 1.65v
GPU: 2x EVGA GeForce GTX 280 HC16 HydroCopper 691/2430MHz 1024MB overclock ?
HDD: 4x Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000GLFS 300GB 10Krpm 16MB SATAII
Audio: Creative SB X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro, PCIe
DVD ROM: Samsung SH-D163B 16x DVD-Rom, zwart SATA bulk
Blu-Ray R/W: Plextor PX-B920SA 4x Blu-Ray Rewriter SATA retail
Watercooling
ThermoChill PA120.2
ThermoChill PA120.1
Swiftech Apogee GTZ
Swiftech MCP655
Nalgene tubing 1/2" ID / 3/4" OD (13x3)
EK Water Blocks EK-Multioption RES 100 rev. 2
Input
Logitech G15 v2 Gaming Keyboard
Logitech G9 Gaming Laser Mouse
Monitor
2x Samsung 305T+ 30" WideTFT 2560x1600 6ms S-PVA
OS
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate UK SP1 64bits Box OEM


So I am set for 2009 Wink
 

Happy Flying Core i7 965EE @ 4GHz water cooled | DRAM Corsair Dominator 1866 CL9 @ 1600MHz CL8 | (SLI) 2 x EVGA GTX 285 FTW 720/1620/1390 water cooled | 2 x 30" Samsung 305T+ @ 2560x1600 | CH Products Controls Eclipse Yoke + Throttle Quadrant + Fighter Stick + Pro Throttle | TrackIR 4 Pro | Logitech G9 + G19 | FSX+ACC+UTX+GEX+FEX+REX+ASA+MyTraffic | 3DMark Vantage 28846
IP Logged
 
Reply #7 - Nov 27th, 2008 at 5:52pm

Chiari   Offline
Colonel
777 lover
São Paulo, Brazil

Gender: male
Posts: 14
*****
 
do you think is it possible of any other smashing revision coming up in a short time, meaning a colder cpu or anything else? just like happened with the q6600, comparing B3 with G0, it was a huge improvement

thats just my only fear about upgrading now, its a very recent release, besides i think the money worth anyway.

would an 8800ultra bottleneck it?
 

i7 920 @4.2GHz&&Asus P6T&&Patriot 6GB 1600&&MSI GTX 280 OC&&Seagate 500gb 7200.12rpm (FSX Dedicated)&&Vista 64&&Trackir & Saitek X52
IP Logged
 
Reply #8 - Nov 27th, 2008 at 6:56pm

HarvesteR   Offline
Colonel
F/A-18 HARV    Almost
has my name on it!
Mexico, DF :D

Gender: male
Posts: 707
*****
 
very good review there Nick... thanks for the info about these new i7's  Smiley

i'm currently on a Pentium D 3.4 with 2GB DDR2 memory, so upgrading is never far from my mind... however, my budget is now severely limited, and i must wait until some more cash comes along...

thankfully as you pointed out, the 768 GTX is still a decent card, so i can hold onto it for now and make my new rig that much cheaper

but it was a good thing that i didn't upgrade these past few months, for i would have bought a Q9650 just a month before the i7 was launched... (that happened to me when i bought the Pentium D and the Core2 launched a month later  Tongue )

now i'm going to redesign all my wants for my future rig, and hopefully some time next year i can get me one of them i7's too

Cheers
 

Cheesy NEW PC SPECS: Intel Core i7 920 - 6GB Corsair DDR3 PC12800 RAM- Intel DX58SO Mobo - Geforce GTX 460 768MB GDDR5 - 3x LG1952h LCDs through Matrox's TH2Go - 640GB Seagate Barracuda 7200Rpm  - 200GB Maxtor 7200Rpm - Microsoft Sidewinder X6 Keyboard - 5.1 Surround and a Saitek X52 Pro and Pro Flight Rudder Pedals  -- Running Windows 7 Ultimate x64

My 8800 GTX has at last retired... may it rest in peace in GPU heaven.
IP Logged
 
Reply #9 - Nov 28th, 2008 at 9:16am

NickN   Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317
*****
 
FlightTime wrote on Nov 26th, 2008 at 6:50pm:
I have a very smooth FSX quad system at 4Ghz.

Anyway you can post some full size screen shots with location details showing the sharpness/detail differences your seeing with a i7, or frame rate graphs comparing a properly setup core system vs the i7?

I've been thinking the differences would be very small if any at 4GHz on either setup if the setup is optimized, but if your seeing clear advantages I love to see examples to motivate upgrading Smiley








forget framerates

anyone who uses them to make a point about FSX is numb from the neck up and does not understand the title

Screenshots will never show the differences. Only real time use


I never said everyone should drop what they have and run out and buy i7. I provided a base for those who may consider such a move to place thought into their decision.

If you are smooth and like what you see, why even consider the upgrade? Why not wait and get the time out of the system in use and purchase later when perhaps memory and motherboard options appear which are less expensive and perform the same as the parts available for i7 today

 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print