Simviation Forum - GTX 260 with Quad Doubles FPS

Oct 17^th, 2008 at 6:46am

GabethePilot Offline
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Fly FS

Posts: 27

Hi All,

Finally went down the Quad and latest card route - despite what the forums may say about CPS limitation etc.

My framerates have doubled in areas of high 3D and low Ai - example London VFR with no ai traffic is doubled in terms of framerates and is a lot smoother with less blurries.

In other situations with high Ai and weather etc. my fps has increased by a n average of 50%.

This is over a core 2 duo of similar speed and an 8800GTS 320MB card.

Amazing improvement - really wasn't expecting it to be honest. So I've given this heads-up - a good card together with a quad core CPU - as long as they're o/c'd - really does improve things significantly.

I am playing at 1650x1080 rez, with nHancer at 4xSS Combined with 16x AF.

RAM is 1:1 (one to one) ratio and my CPU is volted at 1.47 in the BIOS (CPUz = 1.4 with droop) and the RAM is running at stock volts = 2.1v whilst I increased my MCH and FSB volts by just +0.1 to improve stability.

CPU is running at 425 x 8.

Temps never exceed 60 degress (CPU) while gaming and card is around 58 degrees. Idle temps - 50 deg CPU and 38 deg. G card.

Using Prime95...max temp is around 67 degrees. All this with a Arctic Cooler Pro with Arctic Silver tim.

Can't recommend this enough.

Eg. Framerates - London VFR Very Sparse Scenery with zero Ai or Weather with maximum water/texture/5m mesh etc. - over 50 fps in microlight (22 before).

Random rural airport at normal scenery with ai at zero and everything else maxed out - Cessna default - 150 fps / with G1000 version - 100 fps.....both 50% higher than before.

Nice ! - it'll do until the Nehalem/DDR3 system evolves and comes down in price - maybe a couple of years ? !

Other games have also almost, doubled in terms of framerates - pretty much across the board.

=============================================
FYI - 3D Mark 06 default 12x10 no AA/AF - 17,355 /16x10 4AA/16AF = 12500.

The only problem I have is that GriD crashes on occasion....but apparently that's quite common.

My message is that if people are having problems with the 260 (I hear this is the case) it ain't the card per se.

I am also using 177.92 driver and SP2 Acceleration with XP 32 - SP3 installed. I also used Ultimate Defrag to do a consolidated defrag with 250 GB of FSX data only on a the 500 GB Samsung 501 HD.
=============================================

Q6600(G0) 3.4Ghz; GTX 260 (675/1275); 2GB Corsair XMS2 - DHX 850Mhz (5/5/5/15); Samsung 501, 16MB; Antec P180 & Truepower Trio 650W; P35C DS3R. XP SP3.

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Reply #1 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 2:14pm

NickN Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317

Quote:

This is over a core 2 duo of similar speed and an 8800GTS 320MB card

What you are seeing is not a miracle.. its because you actually have a real processor and video card now

Your original video card was low memory and low quality...

Anyone going from a current Q6600 and a 8800GTX 768 would not see any change at all from that 260 card in FSX.. and the processor is NOT all about GHz which is another HUGE MYTH perpetuated by a few sites I know on the net. GHz is very important however the CPU design itself in cache and other internal abilities also drives that perf

You actually have FSX hardware now... where before what you had was a joke for FSX

I dont doubt the FR went up but it was not the 260 that did it.. it was going from that 320 card and slower dual to a quad and a real card. The 8800GTX Ultra will out perform the 260 in FSX

Glad to see you are flying better now~!

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Reply #2 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 5:13am

GabethePilot Offline
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Fly FS

Posts: 27

Well I wouldn't say the 8800GTS 320 was a "joke" - when FSX came out, it was probably one of the fastest cards you could get - I was an early adopter of the first DirectX-capable cards !

Also, regardless of the benefits of the 260 or not - and the Ultra only "beats it" by some 3-4 % (arguably not significant if proper statistical trials were performed) - the quad is clearly much faster than the old 'duo' which was running at the same speed.

This is interesting as many are saying they find no improvement when moving to a quad: my improvement is phenomenal and as better drivers come out I am expecting things to improve even more - clearly the driver issue is behind the Ultra's "superiority". and, shouldn't you drop your "Ultra is best" campaign - you can't even buy them any more ! ??

Anyways, a 50% increase in the PMDG 747 performance - from 17 fps to 28 and a doubling of frame rates over 'VFR London' at 16x10 with everything maxed-out except Ai traffic (~10%) is astonishing. I put it down to the Quad - I also notice that when high-CPU activity kicks-in, all four show 100% activity for the duration - so much for the "FSX can't utilise 4 cores" theory.

Maybe it's my system/software environment, but the synergy that exists between my current components is certainly worth the outlay of £350.

I forgot to mention that I am using the 3GB switch as well - it may be in my head, but I am sure that the time taken for VC textures to load when switching views (which I do a lot) is also faster than before.

Finally, qualitatively, ground texture loading and blurries are also much improved.

I heartily recommend this setup to everyone who can't afford the new Nehalem architecture just yet !

Q6600(G0) 3.4Ghz; GTX 260 (675/1275); 2GB Corsair XMS2 - DHX 850Mhz (5/5/5/15); Samsung 501, 16MB; Antec P180 & Truepower Trio 650W; P35C DS3R. XP SP3.

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Reply #3 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 9:36am

NickN Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317

Its like this Gabe

FSX wants 512mb for video memory if it can have it… all to itself. Above 512mb FSX can use for the frame buffer and also for bufferpool use which goes to reserving memory for banking and turns.

Anything below 512mb and you are starving FSX for resources. That is why I use a 768MB video card.

The memory buss ability going from that 320 8800 to the 768 8800 version or even the 260 when at the same time you upgraded the CPU to match that attribute is also a huge reason for what you are seeing. You opened the bottleneck by matching the components.

Also, when core runs are made the reason that core went on a 320mb supporting card was because it failed the 8800GTX and GTX 768/640mb binning tests and not only was it short on memory it was short on shader clock ability and several other internal functions making the core sub-standard compared to its expensive siblings.

At the time your 320 was not in any way shape or form a top of the line card for FSX. It was actually considered a med-low quality card.

Yes, the myth of a quad not doing any better than a dual is hogwash however the reason such hogwash was perpetuated is because of people who changed their processor but did not change their vide card to match its ability and also did not understand correct and proper motherboard and memory purchase choices which will also net another boost in perf.

If you go through this thread to the end,.. you will see that proper setup of motherboard/memory and CPU in action

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1223693603

These silly compares of 7-10% I see posted on the net really make me laugh. In FSX 10% is a huge perf increase as I have shown time after time. Heavy overcast weather is one area the better video card will provide a smooth experience and when you add in a large urban setting on top of that the value of such cards and CPUs becomes obvious very fast.

« Last Edit: Oct 20^th, 2008 at 1:17pm by NickN »

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Reply #4 - Oct 21^st, 2008 at 8:13am

macca22au Offline
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Nick: the first of the i7 CPUs will be out soon. I will buy the top of the line quad when it is available. Is there a videocard to match, or will my GTX 8800 be ok until the next generation of vidcards arrives. I notice that the GX 280s are frequently mentioned and also the 9650s.

It will mean of course a new motherboard and DDR3 RAM. I would like to get the best hardware possible and then I will try and find someone here in Melbourne Australia to tune the whole system to your specs.

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Reply #5 - Oct 21^st, 2008 at 10:56am

NickN Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317

Its going to be excessively expensive down there... I expect the extreme release with motherboard and memory here in the states to run 1.5-2K alone which means with your premium down there you can expect a hell of a price tag

As with any proc today overclocking is a prerequisite to getting the perf out of the price you paid. The same will be true of i7 so you will need someone who knows how to clock that platform which will be similar to AMD's method but with a few twists

The i7 extreme edition will be the only processor with the multiplier available. Clocking it will be easier than the others for the same reason clocking todays chips is easier with the extreme model. Without the multiplier you must use FSB to do the work.

None the less it will take a bit of time for techs to learn the new system so running out and buying right away between the price of the new platform and the experience factor may not be a good idea

The 280 is the only card right now that will beat a 8800GTX Ultra or a very overclocked 8800GTX

but even that wont be a leaps and bounds upgrade if you already have the mentioned card and its clocked

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Reply #6 - Oct 23^rd, 2008 at 6:40pm

GabethePilot Offline
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Fly FS

Posts: 27

NickN wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 9:36am:

At the time your 320 was not in any way shape or form a top of the line card for FSX. It was actually considered a med-low quality card.

Well I did buy mine the day they came out - it was hardly mid-range - only 2 cards were faster at the time and they cost over £400 !

...if you ignore the 1900XTX series from ATi.

Yes, the myth of a quad not doing any better than a dual is hogwash however the reason such hogwash was perpetuated is because of people who changed their processor but did not change their video card to match its ability and also did not understand correct and proper motherboard and memory purchase choices which will also net another boost in perf.

Absolutely....not only have my FPS shot up, the loading of textures and such seems so much quicker - although it may well be the interaction of all 3 upgrades. Also, the 3GB switch benefit is debatable and it's not even possible to know for sure it's working - although my RAM did improve to 4/4/412 from 5/5/5/15.

If you go through this thread to the end,.. you will see that proper setup of motherboard/memory and CPU in action.

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1223693603

These silly compares of 7-10% I see posted on the net really make me laugh. In FSX 10% is a huge perf increase as I have shown time after time. Heavy overcast weather is one area the better video card will provide a smooth experience and when you add in a large urban setting on top of that the value of such cards and CPUs becomes obvious very fast.

Well my CPU is running well at 1.4-1.47v with just +0.1 to the MCH and FSB. RAM is at stock (2.1v) and my temps never exceed 68 degrees with Prime95 - 60 degrees with games/FSX.

Also, my card is o/c'd to almost as fast as a stock 280 - which is twice the cost of mine - which I picked up for £165 - £20 less than a 4870 !

So I'm happy with my setup now. And I'm hoping the new 180 drivers may improve matters - certainly will with Far Cry 2 which will be my next purchase along with Aerosoft's F-16 - which will really test the blurries !

And, of course, generally... it rocks - smashing the "Ultra" in 85% of other "games", it is the joint-second fastest single-chip card out there (important for me as I see stuttering like small boys see dead people !)- and the best in terms of bang-for-buck....and Tom recommends it too...!

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/nvidia-gtx-280,review-30971-28.html

Thanks for your advice anyhow....BTW, is GE Pro -Europe ever coming out ? Needs to hurry - I believe OrbX are working on it - and there stuff is pretty good !

Q6600(G0) 3.4Ghz; GTX 260 (675/1275); 2GB Corsair XMS2 - DHX 850Mhz (5/5/5/15); Samsung 501, 16MB; Antec P180 & Truepower Trio 650W; P35C DS3R. XP SP3.

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Reply #7 - Oct 23^rd, 2008 at 9:51pm

macca22au Offline
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Thanks Nick for the wise words. The Australian dollar has gone down like a lift (elevator) against the greenback, so buying a brand new set up will be pricy.

I have read your excellent series on overclocking with my 71year old colleague (joined in age).

What say I install a 9650 and a GX280 and get them clocked. I can give my tech your instructions, but can you point me to a post on clocking the 280?

Preferably yours as I find other forums that are so variant I simply don't know which to trust.

It's nearly 1pm here in the middle of the day, so I suspect you may be soundly asleep. I look forward to your response.

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Reply #8 - Oct 23^rd, 2008 at 11:58pm

NickN Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317

macca22au wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2008 at 9:51pm:

Thanks Nick for the wise words. The Australian dollar has gone down like a lift (elevator) against the greenback, so buying a brand new set up will be pricy.

I have read your excellent series on overclocking with my 71year old colleague (joined in age).

What say I install a 9650 and a GX280 and get them clocked. I can give my tech your instructions, but can you point me to a post on clocking the 280?

Preferably yours as I find other forums that are so variant I simply don't know which to trust.

It's nearly 1pm here in the middle of the day, so I suspect you may be soundly asleep. I look forward to your response.

Clocking the 280, which I have never done, will require 3rd party software like RivaTuner.

However EVGA has a tool which may be easier to use for you

http://www.evga.com/precision/

you have to register to download the tool

When you overclock a video card you have to know when to stop. The 280 is different than a 8800 where you want the card to run 80c or less in temp under a load. The core temp on a 280 will probably run hotter. I do not know the max safe for a 280. I would probably make sure it stays under 90. and there is no memory temp monitor. Staying below 90c under a full load and making sure no graphic anomolies or errors show on the screen is how a card is clocked. It takes a bit of trial and error even for an experienced user. Sometimes you can get information about what other people are getting out of the card by googling

I dont know what safe values to suggest for the card. I still use a 8800GTX overclocked and hacked to be an ultra.. but I will also be upgrading sometime soon

I use ATI tool for my 8800GTX (cant use that for the 280) and have the software automatically detect 3D use so it overclocks the 8800 core and memory automatically when a 3D application is open and underclocks it when I close the 3D application... no manual setting hassles. I use Rivatuner to control the fan speed automatically based on profiles I designed so I dont have to listen to the card when i am not running it for 3D.

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Reply #9 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 12:07am

macca22au Offline
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Ouch, Nick: I investigated the Intel price for a 9770 in Australian dollars and it is $2500. At least the 9650 is a thousand dollars cheaper. I haven't got a price on the GX 280 as yet.

Which Mobo would you recommend, and it will also require me to get DDR3 RAM. And my sad history shows that that RAM is something that should not be skimped on for quality and speed, or getting the lowest latency that I can afford.

I have a feeling when the i7 arrives it will be close to $A3k. Too much even for an addict like me.

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Reply #10 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 6:27am

GabethePilot Offline
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Fly FS

Posts: 27

macca22au wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 12:07am:

Ouch, Nick: I investigated the Intel price for a 9770 in Australian dollars and it is $2500. At least the 9650 is a thousand dollars cheaper. I haven't got a price on the GX 280 as yet.

Which Mobo would you recommend, and it will also require me to get DDR3 RAM. And my sad history shows that that RAM is something that should not be skimped on for quality and speed, or getting the lowest latency that I can afford.

I have a feeling when the i7 arrives it will be close to $A3k. Too much even for an addict like me.

Hi,

I can't advise on m/b's, wait for Nick on that - but as for o/c the 200-series people have good results.

My 260 was 560/1100 at stock, and I foolishly bought a slightly overclocked variety...at 640/1150. But, in just 2 minutes I had pushed it further to 680/1220.

It never runs at more than 70 degrees with just a 40% fan rate (1800rpm) and is as quiet as my last card. I hate to think what people are runinng it at to get 100% fan speeds.

Some have pushed the 260 to over 700/1300....I'm happy leaving a little headroom and having things nice and quiet - as for my CPU which I left at 3.4.

I would imagine that the 280 would also overclock well judging by the sheer numbers of o/ced flavours hitting the market.

The new 180 driver fro the 200-series is also out now - allows multiple monitors in FSX. This may not sound fantastic, but one could presume that they are turning their attention to FSX...! ?

Maybe it's only time until a driver comes out that see's a significant improvement in the 200-series' performance in FSX thereby promoting to the cards to the same lofty position they enjoy for general gaming ! Don't forget, generally they are the best single-chip cards - dual chips and SLi have been known to create micro-stutters which if you are sensitive to them would be a nightmare - and you can forget ATi for FSX too.

Go for the 280 is you can afford it - you won't be disappointed.

Q6600(G0) 3.4Ghz; GTX 260 (675/1275); 2GB Corsair XMS2 - DHX 850Mhz (5/5/5/15); Samsung 501, 16MB; Antec P180 & Truepower Trio 650W; P35C DS3R. XP SP3.

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Reply #11 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 9:16am

macca22au Offline
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Thanks Gabe fpr tjat information, I appreciate your advise. Oh well, sigh, its only money. But in fact I thik at last we are getting to the hardware that amateurs like me can get good results from FSX.

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Reply #12 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 11:30am

raptorx Offline
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Get the Q9650. Best processor out now. Get the ASUS Rampage Extreme and 4Gb DDR3 1800. You can run 9 x 450FSB for 4.05GHz with the memory at 2:1 right off the bat. Nick may be able to help you tune the memory in more but from what I understand, 2:1 DRAM:FSB is a sweet spot.

Don't get DDR2 if you use FSX. I would gladly sell my DDR2 board and get DDR3 if I had the money.

And I have high hopes for the 280GTX as soon as the drivers are in order. I haven't seen any FSX tests with the 180 "big bang" beta driver that's out now-maybe that'll show something good???

-Jim

Rampage II Gene, i7 965 4GHz
Mushkin Redline DDR3 1600
XP x64 SP2
ASUS Matrix GTX285

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Reply #13 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 7:25pm

GabethePilot Offline
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Fly FS

Posts: 27

raptorx wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 11:30am:

Get the Q9650. Best processor out now. Get the ASUS Rampage Extreme and 4Gb DDR3 1800. You can run 9 x 450FSB for 4.05GHz with the memory at 2:1 right off the bat. Nick may be able to help you tune the memory in more but from what I understand, 2:1 DRAM:FSB is a sweet spot.

Don't get DDR2 if you use FSX. I would gladly sell my DDR2 board and get DDR3 if I had the money.

And I have high hopes for the 280GTX as soon as the drivers are in order. I haven't seen any FSX tests with the 180 "big bang" beta driver that's out now-maybe that'll show something good???

-Jim

Initial indications is a 5-10% increase in fps.

But, I am also getting a lot of crashes - but this could be my new TrackIR....! ???

Q6600(G0) 3.4Ghz; GTX 260 (675/1275); 2GB Corsair XMS2 - DHX 850Mhz (5/5/5/15); Samsung 501, 16MB; Antec P180 & Truepower Trio 650W; P35C DS3R. XP SP3.

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