Simviation Forum - Ferry Flights

Aug 19^th, 2008 at 3:48pm

jimski Offline
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Trying to simulate a ferry flight from Gander to Prestwick, a very common route in ferry history. About 1900 nautical miles by dead reconning but that is how they did it. Not sure how they dealt with wind forcasts over the open ocean but clearly even a small crosswind on a ten hour flight would blow you hundreds of miles off course.

Problems:

The scenery in North America is pretty coarse. Is there an upgrade as there is for Europe? In particular real Gander seems to be near a large body of water but when I put an airport at the correct lat and long in csf2 I am in the middle of the woods.

Next, I can't tell how csf2 figures magnetic variation although I will need to know it since the program figures it somehow. But there is no mag variation chart shown in the program that I know of. Even standard mag variation charts shown on the net need to know the date since the variation changes a lot with time.

Any suggestions.

Jimski

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Reply #1 - Aug 21^st, 2008 at 2:05am

james007 Offline
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Maybe you should take a look in to this post from Sim-Outhouse!

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=76091

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Reply #2 - Aug 21^st, 2008 at 2:08am

james007 Offline
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My tips on how improve European sceneries.

Europe

I installed McClelland UK sceneries.

1.http://www.simviation.com/cfs2scenery3.htm

I added Ian Elliot London upgrade and Mathias CFS1 airbases o my European Theater.

2.http://www.simviation.com/cfs2scenery8.htm

Then I added the European Coast line to my install.

3.http://www.simviation.com/cfs2scenery11.htm

I also install the BOB selfinstall scenery by Gary Bums.

4.http://www.simviation.com/cfs2scenery13.htm

I also went downloaded Simouthouse Europe Mesh at their backup site.

5. http://www.sim-outhouse.com/master_ftp/cfs2/cfs2-scenery/

You can either install Sim-outhouse or Netwings sceneries Mesh. They both are of very good quality. Its up to you.

6.http://www.netwings.org/library/CFS2%5FScenery/

part two:http://www.netwings.org/library/CFS2%5FScenery/index-2.html

Last but not least I recommend you down load McClelland European Scenery for CFS2. Its a must if you really want to improve this program sceneries up to grade. With his sceneries you will not only have Cities and forest but also roads.

7.http://www.aer.ip3.co.uk/scenery.htm Website not working

You must install this European Texure upgrade. Its the best one in my humble opinion.

8.http://www.mlk-airbase.wz.cz/msfs/scenery/texture_swap.html

You get a cities upgrade right here in this Web. It will not make the cities look more real from 1000 feet and below but it make them look better from 1000Ft and above.

I hate CFS2 clouds. Thanks to our members there are some new clouds available as well.You can get the one from Sim-outhouse call Stiz Clouds or LW clouds. Its you choice. I have install them both in different install that I have. You also download a new Sun.

I forgot Stiz European Water. This is also a must.

9.http://www.sim-outhouse.com/index.php?lloc=downloads&loc=downloads&page=download...

You can also add Seasonal Texutures at Avsim.
They are call cfs2hw.cfs2sp,cfs2su,scfswi,and cfs2fa.Look for them through the search engine at AvSim.Warning you will have to do it Manualy, but its real easy and lots of fun once you figure it out.

http://www.avsim.com/

This are General upgrades. There are more specific area upgrades that are also available for you pleasure.

Check out this Web dedicated for the improvement of European Scenery.

11.http://combatfs.homeip.net/cfs2coast/

I want to Thank this Website and the others like Netwings and Sim-ouhouse and all the Sceneries Developers and smaller Websites for Helping us enjoy this program with your talent. Without out your help this program would not have been the joy it is today.

James007

PS my next post on this subject will be on the Pacific Theater.

On to the Pacific Theater.

Updated 8-20-8

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Reply #3 - Aug 21^st, 2008 at 4:55pm

jimski Offline
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James007

Thanks for the list, a worthy project and good to get it documented. My detail in Europe it quite good although I've forgotten where I got it, probably McClelland's. With an old National Geo map in one hand and the stick in the other I can fly from a base in eastern England to the Danish coast and find the Elbe River, then down to Hamburg, etc. with no reliance on CFS2 nav crutches. But I still can't really do something like that in North America since even large rivers usually aren't shown.

Anyway, I am making progress and will include some links here that have helped a lot in the project.

Kelvin Stonehouse's Canadian Scenery at

http://www.simviation.com/cfs2scenery18.htm

is right on, well researched and I found better than my own efforts. About 50 fine historical bases in the Eastern Canada files.

Another Canadian site at

http://www.junobeach.org/e/4/can-tac-air-fer-e.htm#null

shows good details of the main ferry routes.

And the Marauder Journal at

http://www.kathyamen.net/journal/crossing.htm

shows many blow-by-blow details of the crossing from Florida to Prestwick by navigator Billy Lewis in a B26 right down to copies of his navigator's log book. A real treasure chest here also showing all his bases and details of his 60 missions!

Jimski

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Reply #4 - Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 10:58pm

james007 Offline
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Jimski there are some scenery with water and rivers for the USA in Avsim. Check it out in the extended search CFS2 scenery section on said Website.

James007

« Last Edit: Aug 24^th, 2008 at 5:21pm by james007 »

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Reply #5 - Aug 24^th, 2008 at 4:23pm

jimski Offline
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THAT'S IT!!

The files are by Richard Ludowise and if you do a searce in avsim's cfs2 scenery section you will find he has done many that would probably cover all the world's land. Also there are texture updates so you can fly in different seasons. Haven't tried those but the three I installed are

c2ccanwater.zip
c2ecanwater.zip
c2usawater.zip

As for my little project I found I can pick off great circle waypoints with fs2002 map planner, then find mag variation at those points with

http://geomag.nrcan.gc.ca/apps/mdcal_e.php

then put it all together on paper to get distance, time and mag heading along the great circle route, updating heading about once an hour. In a B25 I flew from Goose to BW1 in Greenland, 700 miles missing my landfall by about 10 miles (about 1 degree). Then I was able to find BW1 base by looking around, didn't need the adf although I had put a beacon there just in case. By the way, the notes in the Marauder Journal show Lewis used radio to find the BW1 base but never used adf or radar vectors in England which surprised me given the density of airbases there at the time. It was all done by dropping through an overcast using dead reconing and looking around for a place to land. There was no shame in landing any convenient place and then asking about where they were.

Jimski

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Reply #6 - Aug 24^th, 2008 at 7:10pm

james007 Offline
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Check this sceneries for the U.S rivers at http://www.simnetwork.com/SIMNETWORK/downloads.php?cat_id=10

James007

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Reply #7 - Aug 28^th, 2008 at 5:09pm

jimski Offline
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Yes, another great set of files.

I got the b25 across the Atlantic via Greenland and Iceland and dead reconing only. Actually it went very well, never got lost although I did it in perfect simulated weather. Hit Reyjkavik square on but went about 10 miles north of Prestwick. The correct mag variation used by cfs2 is still a mystery to me and could easily result in 10 mile errors in a 700 mile flight.

For the record, three more useful links for this. At

http://hem.passagen.se/sm3gsj/gcm.htm

you can download a program that will paint and print maps suitable for plotting great circle routes.

At simouthouse.com you can download

B-26-C15_CFS2.zip

which is a fantastic B26 model. Does not fly like a Piper Cub.

Then at

http://www.b26.com/historian/chester_klier.htm

you can read blow by blow details of about 90 actual B26 missions by the 386th bombardment group based in England, the missions written up by unit historian Chester Klier in great detail. (One tidbit I learn is that the approach to BW1 ferry base in Greenland was done with the old AN sort of radio beacon and I don't believe that has been simulated in cfs2.)

Jimski

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Reply #8 - Sep 15^th, 2008 at 5:26pm

jimski Offline
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Bad weather kept me inside for a day and I had a chance to fly the Gander/Prestwick historic ferry route while watching football on TV. Plotted the great circle route, figured waypoints every 300 miles along the route (about 1900 nm total), found mag variation at the waypoints (using data for 1995, maybe about the time cfs was invented but I still have no idea what date they used when the mag variation was set for the game), made a table of it all and went flying Krzysztof Malinowski's great B24 model (fitted an autopilot to its panel) from Gander at dawn, all this in Free Flight with no chance of using the tactical display for course information. Adjusted my heading per my table every 1:24 which was every 300 miles. Started seeing islands after nine hours which I was able to match to my old National Geo map of the British Isles and figured I was about 40nm north of plotted course and was able to get to Prestwick by pilotage after that, more or less on schedule. So it all works. The error is consistant with a one degree heading error to the north all along the way (but the mag variance changes a lot more than that from year to year). Probably as good as I could do. I had perfect weather of course, no winds. A real flight would have unknown winds to deal with but then again I might be able to ask the navigator for a celestial fix along the way. If I were trying to get to an isolated island in bad weather I'd say that could not be done reliably this way, at least not at a 2000 mi. range.

An interesting experiment. Glad I did it. Learned a lot.

Jimski

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Reply #9 - Sep 17^th, 2008 at 10:04am

Cody_Coyote Offline
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Posts: 92

Thanks jimski, that's an interesting post. It might inspire me to try something similar when I'm cooped up this winter.

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Reply #10 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 8:44pm

jfoxx Offline
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Jimski, i am sorry for this late reply to you problem but i just got into this forum. I am a pilot in real life and my suggetion for Gander would be to go to your local airport and find World Aeronautical Chart, or WAC. look at the back and it will give you a picture of the world and will list the charts by number and will let you find the chart you need of gander with correct mag variation and lat and long of airports with elevation and nav facilities. good for the present but not for the 1940s. now anothwer place for you to lookis in missions of cfs2 on simviation.one that i have is the ferry of b-17s from california to hawaii and on to the phillipines. good mission but rough aircraft. i think there is another one of ferrying from gander to england using p-38s and a b-17 lead ship. most navigation at that time was shooting the stars and shooting the sun during the day. you might check with those designers and possibly get some help. hope this helps you Foxx

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Reply #11 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 8:29pm

jimski Offline
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jfoxx,

thanks for the tip. I found that the ms flight sims seem to all use mag variations from about 1990, that will be within a couple of degrees. I completed two transatlantic flights fairly easily since the Scottish coast is unique to the point where you can use an old national geo map of the area to figure out where you are when you make landfall. (During WW2 some units flew direct from Prestwick, Scotland to Montreal non stop on a regular basis.)

I have nearly completed the transpacific flight legs which were Sacramento, Hawaii, Palmyra Atoll, Kanton Island, Espiritu Santu and Cairns. Still have the last leg to go. Only Kanton was hit dead on. At Hawaii and Palymra I missed to the point where I could not see the land and had to reel myself in with the ndb. At Espiritu Santu I made an error reading my heading on the map, missed by 50 miles with no ndb and had to take a "star shot" with shift Z to get current lat and long and plot a new course. Mind you that a one degree error on a thousand mile flight will give a 17 mile goof and you won't be able to see your island. I have decided that real ferry aircraft probably made use of ndb to find those little islands in real life. All heavy bomber photos, and many medium bomber photos, show adf attenae mounted.

There is no need at all to use mission builder. All flights were done in Free Flight with mag compass and clock, although I had to make or import scenery at most of the above locations.

Glad I did it.

Jimski

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