Are you serious??????






That is absolutely ridiculous. Are you really a Qantas pilot?

There are many things that will happen to you behind the yoke, that will leave you a wiser, better pilot. Some during training, but most, obviously, well after training. I admire that you're willing to share them... most aren't.

It sounds like there was a significant cross-wind during that takeoff ?

If so, then a "launch" into ground-effect, with an immediate crab-angle, was the best way to handle it. But not as reaction. That's something you'd plan on doing. It sounds here, that it was a reaction on your part.

If crosswind was not a factor, I'd need more information before commenting further.

No matter what happened... the bottom line is that you kept your head about you, and piloted your way through it. If you had enough airspeed for for lift (which you obvioulsy did), then aborting the takeoff with significant yaw could have been much worse.

It might have been a poor choice to continue with a takeoff that started with yaw problems from the first application of power... but it was good piloting on your part to get out of there in one piece.

Again.. I need more information..

Rotty's right... even 180hp C172s have pretty negligible torque/p-factor to deal with. Any x-wind at all presents more of a directional problem during a takeoff roll. And the odd thing is that it sounds like you were dealing with a x-wind from the right, not the left.

If you've ever flown and older C172 and then hopped into a newer model (or one with new rudder/nose-wheel hardware), the difference is dramatic. I've flow C172s that had so much slop betwen the pedals and the nose-wheel, that differential braking was required while taxing. And on newer models, the ground steering was was very precise with pedals alone. Maybe after taxiing onto the runway, you had a sloppy nose-wheel, already cocked to the left. And if you were already aimed slightly to the left, the addition on torque/p-factor added to the mix would have you applying LOTS of right pedal.

The other point of Rotty's that is most important; is your instructors evaluation. He knows you, and he's ultimately responsible for your training. It's hard for us to "instruct" by forum post.. so before incorporating ANYthing we say.. please run it by him. I've seen two very seasoned and competent instructors get into heated debates about how to handle their students.

With that said... I'm thinking that the scenario I mentioned, might be what happened... and you probably over corrected. I'm just having trouble understanding how you got into a drifting situation like this. You say that the nose was point right, but the plane was drifting left.. and it sounds like it started happeneing very early...as in, right from the begining of the takeoff roll. I know things happen quickly when we're caught off guard in the cockpit..so maybe the loss of traction happened further into the roll than we're understanding... Although, If you were alone (and from one of your photos, you look rather "small" (as in WELL under 200lb), and if you were flying on tanks under 1/2 full.. a C172 will get up to "lauch" speed in a hurry.

Anyway..a wind from the right would call for LEFT pedal at first. Right pedal would just compound the wind-induced directional problem. Then, as lift began to negate the tires, you'd have to decide when to launch into ground-effect, because drifting would set in. That can be a scary and critical time for a new pilot. Eventually, you won't give this stuff too much thought. You'll be instinctively flying the airplane as you roll out onto the runway.. and your feet will do their stuff on reflex. You won't think, "OK, first I'm countering the torque, then I'll deal with the wind".. it will all just happen. Every takeoff is a different dance with the pedals..

I'd just chalk it up to one of those learning experiences. To this day, things happen to me for the first time. Sometimes I fully understand what happened; sometimes not.

I think you have a good enough understanding of it all to remember the important stuff.. and the poise to work through it when it happens. Most important is that you're humble enough to want to talk about it.

Eventually, the rudder dance will be second nature.. even with nasty x-winds 

Yeah, and don't forget the intangibles.. especially in a lightly-loaded airplane.

It might very well have been calm, but when the difference between the wheels having traction, and not having traction might be 38 as opposed to 41kias..that three knot window can be erased by the slightest of wind gusts.

One thing to think about.. maybe.. would be to change your take-off trim a tad.. when it's just you and not much fuel..

Just thinking out loud.

I'd agree with checking the brakes.  Ask whoever works on the aircraft if the left brake looks and functions as it should, also ask about the wheel bearings or anything else that might do that.  If you ever see anything on the preflight, or have any questions about anything like that, never, ever hesitate to ask whoever is around, and if nobody is around, don't go.  It's not worth getting killed over.

I have almost 200 hours in 172s and I've never had an issue like this, so I  would imagine it would be an aircraft issue (no offense, I'm not trying to say I'm better than you, just that in my opinion, it's probably an aircraft issue).  I've never noticed that slipstream has never had so pronounced an effect as to pull the nose to the left enough to do what happened to you.  I don't really know what else it could be.

One other thing, when you fly, where are your feet on the rudder pedals?

Hmmm, it's all very odd.  I've flown the 180 hp 172 quite a bit as well, so I don't know why they would be any different.  As far as trimming goes.  I usually try to trim to the so the aircraft will rotate and fly hands-off a little above typical rotation speed (~60 kts, Vx, but check the POH or PIM for your speeds).  There should be a mark on the trim indicator that marks where the trim should be at take-off.  Other than that, I would just recommend making sure you are on the centerline for the entire take-off roll and if you start to deviate at all, correct it immediately and get flying as soon as possible.

How about this - do you notice a substantial left yaw once you're flying?

is it possible that your heels were not on the floor and you touched the left brake pedal?

RitterKreuz wrote on Jun 11^th, 2008 at 1:33am:

There is that one... forgot about that.

He discredited himself with that first post.

I wasn't going to say anything, but seeing how TSC. has brought it up.

Do you have something against me gsamsonite? Your profile says you have made three posts, and as far as I see all three have been made against me. I say against me due to the fact that, unlike some people such as Brett and Rotty, your posts seem to have no constructive advise or value. I agree with TSC.'s comment, are you like this with all of your students? You seem to expect people to intuitively know how to fly an aircraft, and not make a single mistake or fault. Tell me, are you so perfect that when you were learning to fly you made every take off perfect, every circuit perfect and every landing perfect? If you say "Yes" then I say you are a liar.

Maybe you are afraid of admitting your own mistakes? May you be one of the cowboy pilots who thinks they are impenetrable and flawless? The reasons I post what I do is because I know when I make a mistake, and I want to fix it so I don't make the same mistake twice. As others have said, my instructor is my primary source but I would also like to gather other opinions, another viewpoint on my errors. I am in training to be a Qantas pilot, I currently have 70 hours and just got my PPL. I by no means expect myself to be perfect yet, I do expect by the time I enter Qantas to be bloody good at what I do but I also expect to still be learning.

Why is it that when ever I do post asking about opinions, you always seem to be right there ready to ridicule? Being an instructor I would think you may have something constructive to say, especially if you have been instructing for three years. Is there any particular reason why you take aim at me? You don't seem to want to have a shot at anyone else who posts with problems. Are you perhaps jealous that I am a Qantas Cadet, and have an oppurtunity that you didn't? I am not by any means saying I am better than you by saying that, nor do I think I am better than anyone else for being a Qantas Cadet. If I did think so, why would I be here admitting my mistakes? I am always first to notice when I do something wrong, because I want to be the best I can be.

Your first post was in reply to my first solo thread. Now being my first solo, how many hours do you think I had? 20 or so? Do you expect me to be perfect, after 20 hours, with the stress of my first solo on top? It does seem so. Yes, I did get low on approach and go through some wake turbulence, and it has been the only time. Guess what? A C172 does produce wake, every wing producing lift creates a wake vortex. It is called induced drag, and happens to increase when the angle of attack increases. If a 172 is on final, with a high angle of attack, with flaps out and producing a large amount of lift then it will produce some significant vortexes. You may have experienced it yourself when doing a steep level turn. Ever done one perfectly, and then felt the bump at the end? That was you going through your own vortex. I thought that would be basic knowledge for an instructor.

Your second and third posts were in this thread. I can't say much about the first one other than what I said earlier. I will add one thing though, do you find "Are you serious?????? That is absolutely ridiculous. Are you really a Qantas pilot?" a suitable reply, especially when compared to other posts that followed by helpful members? Your next post is equally ridiculous. I didn't realise every single pilot in the world goes off the runway only once, thanks for sharing that information. Secondly I have only run off the runway ONCE. That was the first time I experienced this effect. I posted about it and recieved some very helpful replies and when I experienced the same effect again the other day I was able to react suitably and move into ground effect for greater control before climbing out. See what I did there? I learnt from a mistake so it wouldn't happen again! What I want to know is what produces the effect described, because it is an odd effect that isn't covered in day to day lessons. I don't need an effects of control lesson, I understand fully what each control does. At the moment, it seems the cause is the aircraft is light enough to slightly lift earlier than I am used to with an instructor on board.

I ask kindly that you no longer reply to my threads, unless you have something constructive or helpful to add.

TSC - not talking to you. The way I manage my students is none of your business and I'll have you know all of them have gone on to bigger and better things.

Brett Henderson - No discredit there. I was stating the facts.

Splinter562 - I was talking about a. 152s and b. landing behind them, obviously with a low power setting.

And Wingo - I don't have anything against you personally... It's just I have students that would give my right arm, for a place in your course, and could very possibly be there on more merit.
If you have a problem, ask a real pilot - not others on here.

You're all hacks! I'm out.

gsamsonite wrote on Jun 12^th, 2008 at 5:01am:

You are a real pilot, you were asked, & yet you still had no answers - just put downs.

Wingo was simply asking for advice, not a kick in the nuts.

TSC.

I'm still thinking that a light pilot, alone in a C172, with less than 1/2 tanks  WITH 10 degrees of flaps, might find the tires useless at airspeed as low as 30knots.

**being that I weigh all of 225, and rarely fly alone (and rarely use flaps for takeoff).. I'm kinda clueless..  

Excellent observation.. Aviation is one place where getting a little loose with terminology can pile up into a bunch of mis-communication..

Rotty, you're not a 200-pounder..  Can a C172 get frictionless at 30kias with just you, low fuel and 10 degrees of flaps ?

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I don't take off with flaps extended, only when doing short fields. The first time this happened I was performing a touch and go. The flap selector was on 0 but the flaps were still retracting when I applied power. The second time was 0 flaps from a full stop.

I would say you are right in saying I should be anticipating rather than correcting, which would avoid this effect even beginning.

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I can't say for sure, but on both it would have been very close to 950kg or 2090lbs, with myself at 60kg or around 130lbs.

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I will keep that one in mind! I didn't realise that there was a difference