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Sim Flight Training: PPL: Part 5.1 of 7 (Read 5183 times)
Jan 9th, 2008 at 9:57am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
SimV Private Pilot:

1-Plan a flight of 50nm or more, accounting for winds aloft and their affect on heading and ground-speed. Calculate the minimum fuel needed (including reserves) and the maximum payload at that fuel level.

2-Fly the planned flight holding heading (+/- 10 degrees) and altitude (+/- 100 feet); enter the traffic pattern safely; execute a touch-and-go and fly one complete lap around the pattern and then execute a full-stop, short-field landing.

3-Execute a short-field takeoff.

4-Execute a constant-airspeed, climbing turn.

5-Track a VOR radial and fly to an NDB.

6-Execute a 360 degree, steep turn (greater than 45 degrees bank) holding altitude +/- 100 feet and rolling out on heading +/- 10 degrees.

7-Execute a no-flap landing.


The title to Part 5 lists, "flying to an NDB".

Just like discussing VORs can not be only, "tracking a radial"... NDBs can not just be flying to one. Although, that simplest of NDB tasks also gets into one of the more difficult aspects of NDB navigation... wind aloft corrections.

Basically, and NDB (non directional beacon) is nothing more than a dumb transmitter. It just sits there radiating radio waves in every direction (non directional). All the intelligence is on the receiving end... and it pretty much amounts to a directional antenna. Remember holding your TV's rabbit ears, trying to get a better picture.. and part of that process was "aiming" them ? As you'd rotate them, the picture would get better, and then worse ?  If, when the picture quality peaked, and you knew exactly which direction to that station's transmitter, you could glue a pointer to the rabbit ears, you would have a crude ADF (automatic direction finder, the radio and gauge used to track NDBs).

Your airplane is the rabbit ears, and the ADF gauge tells you which direction to point them, to give you the best reception..

The ADF gauge itself gives no heading information. With the VOR you can spin the OBS to get the exact heading TO that station, but all the ADF gauge tells you, is a relative bearing. If the ADF needle points to 12 o'clock, the station is straight off your nose; 6 o'clock, off your tail; 3 o'clock, directly to your right... etc..  In other words.. if you took your chart in hand (oriented so that "up" is your heading), and could slide it behind the ADF needle so that the needle is your current position.. the needle would point to the NDB on that chart.

The standard ADF gauge has a compass card (kinda like an OBS ring, but utterly functionless, other than a reference). The theory is that if you spin that card to match your directional gyro, the ADF needle would now point to the heading (on that card) that is indeed directly to the station. The downside to this, is that every time you change headings, you'd have to manually change the compass card. The first skill you need to practice for efficient NDB navigation, is to mentally transpose the ADF needle onto you directional gyro. It's not completely accurate, but neither are NDB/ADFs anyway.. and saves you a step and some time that will be precious time when you're flying an NDB approach in 1 mile visibility.

The MSFS C172 is equipped with a classic ADF gauge. There are a few "modern" ADF gauges out there, that have slaved compass cards (they automatically adjust for your heading), and those are really more like an RMI (radio magnetic indicator). The default Baron and KingAir have these RMIs that also include a VOR needle (associated with the Nav-2 radio ). RMI navigation is a whole different beast that we'll get into later. I'll just add that the ironic twist to an RMI, is that it reduces the VOR to and NDB (no CDI or exact radial selection.. it just "points" to the station).

ANYhow... as you're seeing; NDB navigation is relatively simple, until you add some wind.

Imagine that you're flying to a small airport and the visibility suddenly deteriorates. Luckily, there's an NDB right at the airport (and you knew this because of your professionally detailed flight planning, and already have it tuned in). With no wind to deal with;  you'd just turn the plane until the ADF needle was at 12 o'clock and it would take you straight to the airport. As I mentioned..the compass card is to be ignored..All we care about is the needle and its relative bearing.

...

However.. wind has its say. With a  VOR, you'd have the CDI needle to keep you on that initial, straight line. If you just "point" your plane in the direction indicated by the ADF needle.. the wind will start blowing you off that line... and as you keep adjusting your heading to keep the ADF needle at 12 o'clock... you'll end up flying a big "arc" to the airport. This will get you there, if time and fuel are of no concern, but it's hardly efficient nor good piloting... AND could take you into restricted or controlled airspace.. OR.. right into some obstacles or terrain you weren't prepared for.

...

...



The trick is to note the heading when you first turn directly to the NDB.. and then make your heading adjustments to keep the ADF needle on THAT heading (by super-imposing it on the directional gyro (or if you insist, by the compass card  IF you're constantly adjusting it to match the directional gyro). Again, I've intentionally left the compass card at a random setting in the diagrams.. and it is to be ignored. I've also tried to show the mentally transposed ADF needle on the directional gyro (translucent magenta). Now you're flying a wind-corrected heading of ~060 to keep the ADF needle on ~030.

...

Don't worry if this doesn't make sense right off the bat. Just like VOR navigation.. a little discussion, with questions and answers, will have it crystal clear in no time...

It's important to mention why it can be critical to fly directly to an NDB on a SPECIFIC course. Aside from wasting time and fuel; if you're flying an NDB instrument approach... that course will be most likely be runway heading (you don't want to pop out of the clouds at 300agl perpendicular to the runway).. or sometimes the NDB approach cousre is to keep you clear of obstacles (it would be even worse to pop out of the clouds with a radio tower filling your wind-screen)...
 
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Reply #1 - Jan 12th, 2008 at 11:39pm

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Looks like I've got this down, Brett. I just flew KLNA --> RUBEN (NDB) --> PLANTATION (NDB) --> KHWO and it went just fine. There was no wind, though. So, I still do have to try it with the wind, which is more challenging, but sure to be interesting.

However, I do have one question. There is no way to measure distance from a NDB, correct? So the only way to know how far one is from you is by using dead reckoning? These were my calculations to figure out how far PLANTATION was from RUBEN:

d=rt
d=104(~.4)   Timed at ~20min, which is .4/hr
d=~42nm

According to SkyVector, it's ~43.8.

Well taught, Brett. Thanks to you, my time in FS is now productive and fulfilling. Thank you for changing my experience with FS!  Cheesy

-Andy

 
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Reply #2 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 10:21am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Excellent !  Smiley

Wait until the "real" thing happens... When you sit down to fly to your favorite, $100 hamburger place. You know the route well so pre-flight begins with a glance at the weather http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/ to decide whether or not to file IFR....It looks "OK", so you decide to go VFR...  Fire up the sim  run real weather.. go to spot view for a walk-around... sit yourself in the VC... breeze through the checklist (tune in the NDB at the field, just in case)...  take off... dodge a few clouds.... get up to 4,500msl and start enjoying the view...

NEXT THING YOU KNOW, you're VFR on top and can't see the ground well enough for pilotage.

You're only 30 miles out, and a check of the destination AWOS confirms VFR, with a broken layer you'll have to descend through... so you decide not to bother ATC with a "file on the fly" (but are prepared to, if things get worse)..

The runway there is 09/27 with the wind favoring 27... You go ahead and start turning to fly a course that will put you on an extended final to runway 27... When the mentally, super-imposed ADF needle points to 270 on the directional-gyro, you turn 270. Since you checked winds aloft during preflight, you know the appproximate correction, and sure enough.. as the needle starts drifting; you correct your heading to about 275 to hold the needle on the gyro-imposed 270, adjusting as needed.

Now.. this brings us to your  GOOD  question.. How far out are we ? When will it be safe to descend ? If it were at all in question, we'd have to break off... climd to a safe altitude, and file IFR, and fly the published approach. That gets into instrument training, so I'll just touch on it now.. but we'll have a blast with it later  Smiley

On this flight.. you still have enough visibility to descend at your discretion, and you're just using the NDB to keep you from getting completely turned around. If you know you're only 10 miles out and have to punch through a broken layer; it's comforting to know where the airport is, and that you're on runway heading.

If it were a genuine NDB approach; a typical, published approach would have you fly FIRST to the NDB (at the field in this example)... then you'd fly outbound on the reciprocal of runway heading for a set time.. then make a procedure turn to reverse your course, and fly a wind adjusted time back to the airport. Since you have an initial approach fix (IAF) and timed your way outbound... you'll have a good idea of how far out you are, after the procedure turn... so you descent accordingly on the inbound leg.

Here is a simple example of an NDB approach (we'll get more in-depth when I start the instrument lessons).. You fly directly to the NDB staying above 3100msl.. then at the NDB you turn 095, fly outbound for 2 minutes, while descending to 2600msl... then the procedure turn.. fly 050 for 1 minute, then turn right (always turn away from the airport to keep from drifting too close) to 230 and wait for the super-imposed needle to reach 275... then turn 275 and adjust your heading to keep the super-imposed needle on 275 while descending. You can descend all the way down to 1620 (NO lower) and stay there looking for the runway.. if the NDB needle swings (meaning you just passed over it and missed the runway).. you fly the published missed We'll get into that later).....

...

...
 
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Reply #3 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 10:44am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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There are also some advanced NDB methods for finding out how far out you are. An obvious one would be to find a VOR radial that intersects your course... set the radial on the OBS and when the needle centers, you'll know where you are on your course to the NDB.

Another crude method, using simple geometry, is to change your course by known degree, and time how long it takes for the super imposed needle to match your course change (double the difference between your course and the ADF needle) ...


...

At that point it will take your as long to get to the NDB (from your new postion), as it took to reach that position. It's not effeicient, and lengthens the flight a little.. but if you NEED to know how far out you are, it works  Cool  

Edit: That diagram is an exageration.. you don't need to make 30 degree course changes  Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #4 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 5:39pm

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Luckily I learned to read charts using the built-in lessons in the simulator, so that was easy for me to understand. I think later tonight I'll fly a flight to an airport with an NDB approach and let you know if I have any questions.

-Andy
 
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Reply #5 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 9:29pm

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Ok I just flew

KLNA --> FORT PIERCE (NDB) --> KFPR

I got there just fine with a slight crosswind of about 15 knots. However, the approach to Rwy 27 didn't go as expected.

Here is the plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0713/05343NG27.PDF

I got to the airport, and just when the ADF swung, I turned right heading 067 for 2 minutes and descended to 2,000msl. Then, I turned right again, this time to heading 112 for 1 minute, then LEFT to procedure 292. This is where I got a little confused.

I had my ADF directional gyro to 270, the heading of the runway. However, it was pointed about 15-20 degrees to the left, so roughly 255. This means I overshot the approach. I looked to where the ADF needle was pointing, and indeed there was the airport. So I visually lined up with Rwy 27 and flew in for the final.

My question is: I turned LEFT to heading 292 for the procedure and apparently overshot the approach. Was I supposed to turn RIGHT to 292 from 112 or did I do it correctly?  Undecided
 
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Reply #6 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 9:49pm

C   Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 13th, 2008 at 10:21am:
if the NDB needle swings (meaning you just passed over it and missed the runway).. you fly the published missed We'll get into that later).....

[img]

[img]


I have to admit I think the way the US plates show the missed approach procedure is really useful. Very clear and very succinct - even a half trained pilot monkey could follow those instructions with comparitively little bother... Smiley
 
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Reply #7 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 9:52pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Sounds like you did it exactly right...  NBD approaches are tough, non-precision approaches. They take practice, practice, practice...

The two keys to flying one well are:  Remember the wind and make ALL your turns constant rate, no more, no less.

If, when making the turn to 112 you were turning  even slightly less than standard rate.. and then when making the big, 180 degree turn to 292 you were turning at even slightly quicker than standard rate; you'd make THAT leg of that procedure turn shorter than the 112 leg, throwing your timing, judgment and situational awareness off just a tad. That's not uncommon...  most of my NDB approaches have a zig-zag final approach.

Now .. if the wind was out of the south or southeast, it would compound this problem (slowing your ground-speed on the 112 leag and increasing you ground-speed on the 292 leg).. to the point where you'd miss the turn to runway heading completely.. especially when you're first learning.

The manner in which you missed it.. and the way you described how you missed it, means you really get this.. and you'll be nailing these approaches in no time  Smiley
 
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Reply #8 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 10:02pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
I have to admit I think the way the US plates show the missed approach procedure is really useful. Very clear and very succinct - even a half trained pilot monkey could follow those instructions with comparitively little bother...


Agreed.. but when you're already flustered from missing the runway.. can't see your wing tips for the IMC, flying to the published hold is just the beginning... Entering and flying that hold.. blind and with a wind can be a task and a half Cool
 
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Reply #9 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 10:09pm

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C wrote on Jan 13th, 2008 at 9:49pm:
[quote author=Brett_Henderson link=1199890639/0#2 date=1200237701]
I have to admit I think the way the US plates show the missed approach procedure is really useful. Very clear and very succinct - even a half trained pilot monkey could follow those instructions with comparitively little bother... Smiley


Agreed  Wink  Cheesy

Quote:
Sounds like you did it exactly right...  NBD approaches are tough, non-precision approaches. They take practice, practice, practice...

The two keys to flying one well are:  Remember the wind and make ALL your turns constant rate, no more, no less.

If, when making the turn to 112 you were turning  even slightly less than standard rate.. and then when making the big, 180 degree turn to 292 you were turning at even slightly quicker than standard rate; you'd make THAT leg of that procedure turn shorter than the 112 leg, throwing your timing, judgment and situational awareness off just a tad. That's not uncommon...  most of my NDB approaches have a zig-zag final approach.

Now .. if the wind was out of the south or southeast, it would compound this problem (slowing your ground-speed on the 112 leag and increasing you ground-speed on the 292 leg).. to the point where you'd miss the turn to runway heading completely.. especially when you're first learning.


I did try to keep all the turns during the approach at a standard rate. I succeeded for the most part.

The wind wasn't bad, I think 240@3-5kt. I didn't miss the runway completely. Actually, I didn't miss it at all. I just missed the runway alignment for final at 4nm out.

Now I have another question.

The direct heading from KLNA to KFPR was 346. The wind adjustment heading was -11, so 335. I turned 335 after 500agl from the runway, and then turned my ADF gyro to 335. Is that correct? I recall something about you saying not to move or mess with the ADF gyro?
Is this what causes the "arc" path the NDB? 

Also, I moved it a little bit, maybe 5 degrees total (I was keeping it in sync with my directional gyro) as I got nearer to the NDB, because I tried to keep it straight the whole time. I think I have just realized my mistake here in moving the gyro. I didn't have to move the ADF gyro. I could have just simply adjusted my heading to keep the needle straight.  I guess that was a waste of time, but I did learn.

Man, I actually feel like I'm getting somewhere.. literally  Cheesy
 
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Reply #10 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 10:37pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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The compass ring on the ADF is nearly useless to me... It's just easier look at the ADF needle and then place it mentally on top of your directional gyro.

Again, it sounds like you're getting it, but you're just a little confused.

When you made your original, corrected turn to 335, the ADF needle should not have been "straight" (if by straight you mean pointing to 12 o'clock).. it should have been pointing ~11 degrees to your right (about 1 o'clock) and your goal is to keep it to the right so that where it would be pointing, if it were super-imposed on the directional gyro, would be 335.

In other words... You're  heading will be into the wind by 11 degrees so that your course takes you straight to the NDB (your nose is not pointed at the NDB, so the ADF needle can't be at 12 o'clock)...

Keeping the ADF needle at 12 o'clock is what makes you fly that big arc.. that keeps the NDB straight off you nose, but the wind will keep blowing you off course.. and as you "chase" the needle to keep it at 12 o'clock, you kind of wind-vane around the NDB..

Take another quick look at the diagrams at the beginning of this thread..
 
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Reply #11 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 10:52pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Here's a summary...

In order to fly a course of 360 to an NDB that is directly 360 from your location, with a wind out of 090.... Your heading will be something like 010 and the ADF needle will be pointing ~10 degrees to your left (where 360 would be on the gyro while you're flying 010)... for the whole leg.


The same thing applies while flying the approach. If you're holding a wind-corrected heading to the right of runway heading (crab angle) to stay on runway centerline, the ADF needle will be pointing to your left.
 
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Reply #12 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 11:07pm

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Ok that clears it up much better. I'll fly again tomorrow as I'll have a little bit of time before having to study for mid-terms.

I think my problem is that I'm almost afraid not to have it straight, because when I have it straight, I know that I'm right on track and will fly right over the NDB. On the other hand, even though I'm on track for the NDB with the corrected heading and the needle not on the twelve, I'm afraid I'll miss the NDB when I fly near/over it. That's something I'll have to get used to, but I'm really starting to understand it more. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
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Reply #13 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 11:37pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Here's a modified diagram tracking a straight course to an NDB with a wind. I've made both the NDB needle and it's imaginary place on the directional gyro red.  You see the plane pointing into the wind by 30 degrees (heading of 060 as indicated on the gyro) in order to stay on that 030 course. Now.. relative to the plane's nose (which is pointed 060), the NDB is to the left even though the plane is moving (across the ground) straight to the NDB on the 030 line... and see where that imaginary needle is on the Gyro ?  It's pointing to 030.

...
 
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Reply #14 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 12:19am

Mobius   Offline
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Does the sim use an ADF with a fixed compass card or is it a rotatable compass card?  Or is it just an RMI?  I haven't used it in a long time, and I'm not anywhere near FS right now so I can't check.

Also, with the RMI, you can tune it to either NDBs or VORs, can't you?  Or is it just NDBs?  I've never actually used one, but it seems like if you could tune it to a VOR and have a CDI for the same VOR, it would be too easy almost.  But now I'm just talking about a HSI, aren't I?  I think it's too late and I'm just confusing myself now...

I think I just re-invented the wheel and sliced bread. Tongue
 

...
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Reply #15 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 7:05am

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Quote:
Does the sim use an ADF with a fixed compass card or is it a rotatable compass card?  Or is it just an RMI?  I haven't used it in a long time, and I'm not anywhere near FS right now so I can't check.

Also, with the RMI, you can tune it to either NDBs or VORs, can't you?  Or is it just NDBs?  I've never actually used one, but it seems like if you could tune it to a VOR and have a CDI for the same VOR, it would be too easy almost.  But now I'm just talking about a HSI, aren't I?  I think it's too late and I'm just confusing myself now...

I think I just re-invented the wheel and sliced bread. 


Some planes in the sim use the RMI. I know the KingAir is one of them for sure; I forgot the other. It also has a fixed compass card. Some others, like the Cessna, have ADFs with a rotatable compass card and no RMI.

I believe RMIs can be tuned to both NDBs and VORs, as long as the VOR being used is in Nav-2. There is an earlier post in this thread that clears that up, refer to that in case I'm wrong.
 
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Reply #16 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 7:36am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
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Quote:
Does the sim use an ADF with a fixed compass card or is it a rotatable compass card?  Or is it just an RMI?  I haven't used it in a long time, and I'm not anywhere near FS right now so I can't check.

Also, with the RMI, you can tune it to either NDBs or VORs, can't you?  Or is it just NDBs?  I've never actually used one, but it seems like if you could tune it to a VOR and have a CDI for the same VOR, it would be too easy almost.  But now I'm just talking about a HSI, aren't I?  I think it's too late and I'm just confusing myself now...

I think I just re-invented the wheel and sliced bread.  



Just don't file for a patent  Tongue

The MSFS C172 has a standard ADF gauge, with that useless compass card (it just adds too much to the pilot's workload, to be reaching over and adjusting the compass card to match the gyro EVERY time you change heading.. and the BAD thing is that if you start to depend on the compass card and forget to adjust it (while ATC is babbling 1000 words per minute, you're bouncing around in the clouds, switching com frequencies and trying to remember the heading and altitude ATC just asked for) you'll get into trouble in a hurry)...

And yes.. an RMI has a compass card that adjusts automatically. It's almost like a backup directional gyro. Most RMIs have two needles. One for the ADF, and one for a VOR. The downside to an RMI is that it reduces a VOR to an NDB (all it does is "point" to the VOR station). If you're trying to track an exact radial (like flying a VOR approach) with an RMI, you'll have to do it like you would an NDB (just like we're talking about in this thread). An RMI does not allow for exact radial selection and has no CDI needle to keep centered..

Now using a VOR gauge AND an RMI to track a radial can be helpful. You'd have a CDI to keep you on the radial, and the RMI needle to remind you where the VOR is, relative to your heading.. which would be a nice little reminder to the amount of correction you're holding (and give you a heads up when the wind shifted, or changed velocity)...

But most important of all .. HOW 'BOUT THEM PACKERS !  Cheesy Cool

 
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Reply #17 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 8:21am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
Some planes in the sim use the RMI. I know the KingAir is one of them for sure; I forgot the other. It also has a fixed compass card. Some others, like the Cessna, have ADFs with a rotatable compass card and no RMI.

I believe RMIs can be tuned to both NDBs and VORs, as long as the VOR being used is in Nav-2. There is an earlier post in this thread that clears that up, refer to that in case I'm wrong.


The KingAir and the Baron have RMIs.. both with slaved compass cards (that's what makes them RMIs)..

Quick note on HSIs..   the simplest, like in the Baron, are really just a directional-gyro with a handy CDI needle thats kinda built into the OBS..  You select the radial WITH the CDI. Advanced HSIs, like in jets, have the best of all worlds. They have an HSI AND an RMI-like VOR needle.. AND an ADF needle.. all right there in one place... And you need that in bigger, faster planes.. things happen really fast  Smiley

And the terminolgy changes a bit, too. Radial selection is called the course setting. You'll see that in a jet..  If you want to track a VOR radial.. you change the "course" on the auto-pilot, and that changes(rotates) the CDI..

BUT.. we' aren't worried about twins, or turboprops, or jets, or HSIs, ro RMIs, or any of their terminology...... we're still trying to master a little single-engined, piston airplanes  Wink
 
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Reply #18 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 8:53pm

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Yeah, can you tell that the question where you had to determine your position with two RMI needles was the one I spent the most time on on the IR written? Tongue  Oh well, I passed and learned a bit of a lesson. Wink


Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 14th, 2008 at 7:36am:
But most important of all .. HOW 'BOUT THEM PACKERS !  Cheesy Cool

Go da' Packers. Grin
 

...
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Reply #19 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 12:07pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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I'm going to move on to Part 6 so we can get to the checkrides  Smiley

But all of these threads are always open for new discussion..
« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2008 at 9:24am by Brett_Henderson »  
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Reply #20 - Feb 10th, 2008 at 7:33am

AA   Offline
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Just thought I would jump in here with a little tip that might be helpful. I like to set the compass card on the ADF to 360. That way, it is easier to read how many degrees of deflection you have on the ADF. This makes it very easy to make wind corrections especially if you have a tough time visualising the ADF needle on the DG, and it makes it easier to turn onto a specific course to or from the NDB.

For example, say you are flying the same NDB approach that Brett used earlier. You fly outbound on the 095 course for 2 minutes and turn left to 050. Then, fly out for one minute and turn to 230. Now, Instead of trying to superimpose the ADF needle onto the DG you can just wait until the ADF needle is deflected to the right 45*, and you turn to 275 to track the NDB inbound. This 45* deflection is really easy to see if the compass card is set to 360.

I hope this tip helps out some people that may have trouble with NDB flying. I know that I used to always set the compass card to my heading, but my instructor told me to try just setting the card to 360 and it has made flying NDBs so much easier.  

 
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Reply #21 - Feb 10th, 2008 at 10:10am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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I think I'll try that (real flying too)(although NDB navigation is a dying art...  as most NDB stations fall to age and disrepair, they're not not even getting fixed or replaced)  Smiley

On long, cross-country flights, you can still always tune in major city AM radio stations for reference.. or to guide you home.

On this train of thought.. I'm thinking a fixed card on the NDB that counts to 180 degrees, both left and right of 12 o'clock, would be handy. On the rare time you'd need an exact heading to a station... it would be asy to calculate it from the  +/-  relative bearing you'd get with a card like that...   hmmmmmm  Huh


As for constantly adjusting the standard card to your heading... ADF receiver/gauges aren't accurate enough to be better than a pilot's super-imposition ..
 
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Reply #22 - Feb 10th, 2008 at 3:11pm

AA   Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Feb 10th, 2008 at 10:10am:
NDB navigation is a dying art...


This is very true. I have been learning to fly for a little over a year now at a university flight school. None of the new Warriors that they bought have ADFs in them, and none of the instructors teach how to really fly using NDBs. Luckily, I got one of the few really experienced instructors for my instrument training who knows the value of knowing how to fly NDBs.

On a side note, speaking of university flight programs, most of these programs are very good at turning out a large number of pilots, but they don't turn out many aviators. These programs are good at getting you the ratings and flight time you need to start flying with an airline, and for the most part, they do it cheaply, but sometimes it seems like their only goal is to get as many students through the program as possible. This isn't to say that university flight programs are not a good way to learn to fly, but instead, I am trying to encourage anyone that does go into one of these programs to try flying some hours with a very experienced instructor. This may mean even going outside of your flight school to do it, but just try to. A lot of times, you can learn more from a CFI with 20 years in 1 hour than you will in 5 hours with a CFI at a university who is just trying to build their hours before they move onto an airline.  

Sorry bout the rant, but I think that was a little piece of advice that could be helpful to someone.
 
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Reply #23 - Feb 12th, 2008 at 3:13pm

beaky   Offline
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AA wrote on Feb 10th, 2008 at 7:33am:
Just thought I would jump in here with a little tip that might be helpful. I like to set the compass card on the ADF to 360. That way, it is easier to read how many degrees of deflection you have on the ADF. This makes it very easy to make wind corrections especially if you have a tough time visualising the ADF needle on the DG, and it makes it easier to turn onto a specific course to or from the NDB.

For example, say you are flying the same NDB approach that Brett used earlier. You fly outbound on the 095 course for 2 minutes and turn left to 050. Then, fly out for one minute and turn to 230. Now, Instead of trying to superimpose the ADF needle onto the DG you can just wait until the ADF needle is deflected to the right 45*, and you turn to 275 to track the NDB inbound. This 45* deflection is really easy to see if the compass card is set to 360.

I hope this tip helps out some people that may have trouble with NDB flying. I know that I used to always set the compass card to my heading, but my instructor told me to try just setting the card to 360 and it has made flying NDBs so much easier. 



Yeah, that's the "cheat" I learned; works pretty well.
But you still have to deal with wind, either way... that's why I have almost always used NDBs in RL (VFR) not for homing but for position fixes. Very handy when there's only one VOR station (or none) in range.
 

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Reply #24 - Feb 12th, 2008 at 5:22pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
Yeah, that's the "cheat" I learned; works pretty well.
But you still have to deal with wind, either way... that's why I have almost always used NDBs in RL (VFR) not for homing but for position fixes. Very handy when there's only one VOR station (or none) in range.


Even at the height of their popularity;  when the stations were well maintained, and radio guys new how to finesse that extra bit of accuracy out of the ADF receiver/antennas.. they were still pretty rough, accuracy wise.  BUT they always did make great fix references (see my avatar text), and could help you avoid BIG targets (like airspace), in the days before GPS.

I wish MSFS would build some innacuracy and inconsistency into NDB use Cool
 
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Reply #25 - Feb 19th, 2008 at 7:38pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
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** Bump  ( see thread:  "Putting it all together" ) **
 
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