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Sim Flight Training: PPL: Part 5 of 7 (Read 6583 times)

Jan 2^nd, 2008 at 8:23pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Quote:

SimV Private Pilot:

1-Plan a flight of 50nm or more, accounting for winds aloft and their affect on heading and ground-speed. Calculate the minimum fuel needed (including reserves) and the maximum payload at that fuel level.

2-Fly the planned flight holding heading (+/- 10 degrees) and altitude (+/- 100 feet); enter the traffic pattern safely; execute a touch-and-go and fly one complete lap around the pattern and then execute a full-stop, short-field landing.

3-Execute a short-field takeoff.

4-Execute a constant-airspeed, climbing turn.

5-Track a VOR radial and fly to an NDB.

6-Execute a 360 degree, steep turn (greater than 45 degrees bank) holding altitude +/- 100 feet and rolling out on heading +/- 10 degrees.

7-Execute a no-flap landing.

It's kind of hard to just say, "Track a VOR radial" without having a goal in mind. So this lesson will actually be an intro to VOR navigation... with an NDB thrown in by thread's end.

Again, some fundementals will be assumed. You'll know how to find a VOR fequency on a VFR sectional; an IFR low-altitude chart.. or from whatever source is handy or appropriate. You'll know how to tune that frequency into the proper Nav-radio... and understand how to select a radial using the OBS keeping in mind the to/from.

If you're completely new to VOR navigation; I'd be kidding myself to think I could do better than to have you study this link: http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/index.htm

That, in itself is a complete course in flight-sim radio navigation, and will be referenced quite often. What we'll do here is present a few problems, and talk our way through them. I'll be keeping the images low quality, so that we can post several per thread, in need be.

OK... We all know how hard it can be to find an airport.. even in 20 mile visibility. We need to get from Airport 1, to Airport 2. We have both VORs tuned in and ready to go. We know the two radials that intersect at our destination.. How do we go about finding Airport 2 ?

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Reply #1 - Jan 2^nd, 2008 at 10:22pm

beaky Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2008 at 8:23pm:

How do we go about finding Airport 2 ?

Follow the railroad tracks?

Grin

Grin

Wait, that's not the right answer, is it...

Undecided

Undecided

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Reply #2 - Jan 2^nd, 2008 at 10:52pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Grin

LOL (no)

I forgot to mention, that the railroad tracks would take you through active, restricted airspace, and that Airforce One will pass over them too, on short final... Oh.. and there's a bevy of parachuters near the fringes of the TFR... and a hot air baloon race not far from there. The highway being built along the tracks is going through a mountain that's 14,000msl high (and they're using radio-controlled blasting to tunnel through the mountain).

there... that should cover THAT.. Tongue

Tongue

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Reply #3 - Jan 3^rd, 2008 at 1:44am

ThomasKaira Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2008 at 10:52pm:

Grin

LOL (no)

I forgot to mention, that the railroad tracks would take you through active, restricted airspace, and that Airforce One will pass over them too, on short final... Oh.. and there's a bevy of parachuters near the fringes of the TFR... and a hot air baloon race not far from there. The highway being built along the tracks is going through a mountain that's 14,000msl high (and they're using radio-controlled blasting to tunnel through the mountain).

there... that should cover THAT.. Tongue

Tongue

Shocked

Shocked

Shocked

My Strategy:

Take off, tune VORs, set VOR2 OBS to 155
Fly direct to VOR 1
Reset VOR1 OBS to 085
Fly until VOR2 shows crossover
Descend and land via IAP.
Wink

Wink

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Reply #4 - Jan 3^rd, 2008 at 7:15am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Quote:

My Strategy:

Take off, tune VORs, set VOR2 OBS to 155
Fly direct to VOR 1
Reset VOR1 OBS to 085
Fly until VOR2 shows crossover
Descend and land via IAP.

Yes.. that would work well, and would be the way you'd file it IFR. You can't just file IFR direct to an airport, and then hope ATC holds your hand. You have to file a plan that can be followed, IMC, with no ATC.

However.. on a VFR flight, you'd know the winds aloft ( because you're such a thorough flight planner

), and would fly a heading direct to Airport 2; with your two VORs dialed to the intersecting radials. Then,,, whichever needle centered first would be the VOR you'd fly "TO" (or "FROM" in the case of intercepting the VOR 1, 085 radial), waiting on the other needle to center...

Your, IFR route in Green.. the VFR route(s) in blue.

« Last Edit: Jan 3^rd, 2008 at 9:08am by Brett_Henderson »

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Reply #5 - Jan 3^rd, 2008 at 8:47am

beaky Offline
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I agree with your blue lines: generally I try to fly direct by pilotage and DR, using the VORs as a backup, although in this scenario I might look for a decent visual landmark on the chart near the radial line, and plan to intercept there... it depends on other factors.

Another very good reason to avoid flying directly to VORs when VFR is that it vastly increases your chances of meeting another plane by accident. A lot of VFR pilots avoid it, but a IFR training flight with the PIC under the hood will not. Also, many IFR-rated pilots file IFR even when conditions are VMC, in order to practice using the system. they're supposed to be looking outside when it's VMC, but... they may not. Every pilot trying to nail a VOR station is going to soend more time looking at that needle than looking outside; this is obvious. ATC can help, and in fact they are the safety net when IFR flights converge on a VOR in IMC, but Flight Following may not cover everybody's butt in this VMC scenario.
It's much safer to fly an arc towards the outbound radial, avoiding the station itself, and cutting the corner saves you time and fuel. Just a few miles is enough, no need to do anything radical. I always make sure the needle is sensing that outbound radial and moving towards the center before I veer towards it, to be sure I won't wander away from it.

Of course, if I have two nav tuners available, I would have VOR2 tuned in just in case I reach my ETA for the airport and don't see it... the intersection of the two radials is a very useful tool. Even if I somehow miss even that and still don't have the field in sight, all I have to do is move one or both OBS to find out where I really am, then take it from there.

Having DME capability would obviously make this whole thing much easier, once you know the distance from VOR2 to the airport.

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Reply #6 - Jan 3^rd, 2008 at 8:57am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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VOR Tip 1 :

The VOR gauge and CDI needle do NOT give you heading information.. In this example, the VOR is telling you that IF you were ON the 090 radial AND flying 090, you'd be flying directly FROM the VOR... and at this time, IF you were flying 090, the radial would be to your right (CDI deflected to the right). You could fly in random circles (every possible heading) and the CDI will not center, if that course keeps you north of the 090 radial.

All the VOR/CDI tells you, is your position relative to the selected radial. In this example, let's say our dizzy pilot wanted to fly directly to the VOR, but only on the 090 radial. Remember, you can spin the OBS at any time until the CDI centers (indicating which radial you're on at THAT instant) with a 'TO' (arrow up) to get the heading that will take you to the VOR from your current position. Anyway... to get to the VOR on the 090 radial; you'd dial in the reciprocal (270), and see this:

Telling you that your selected radial is to your left (relative to the OBS setting of 270) and that you'd need to fly a heading significantly left of 270 (the larger the CDI delection, the larger the heading difference) to intercept that radial.

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Reply #7 - Jan 3^rd, 2008 at 9:02am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Quote:

I agree with your blue lines: generally I try to fly direct by pilotage and DR, using the VORs as a backup, although in this scenario I might look for a decent visual landmark on the chart near the radial line, and plan to intercept there... it depends on other factors.

Another very good reason to avoid flying directly to VORs when VFR is that it vastly increases your chances of meeting another plane by accident. A lot of VFR pilots avoid it, but a IFR training flight with the PIC under the hood will not. Also, many IFR-rated pilots file IFR even when conditions are VMC, in order to practice using the system. they're supposed to be looking outside when it's VMC, but... they may not. Every pilot trying to nail a VOR station is going to soend more time looking at that needle than looking outside; this is obvious. ATC can help, and in fact they are the safety net when IFR flights converge on a VOR in IMC, but Flight Following may not cover everybody's butt in this VMC scenario.
It's much safer to fly an arc towards the outbound radial, avoiding the station itself, and cutting the corner saves you time and fuel. Just a few miles is enough, no need to do anything radical. I always make sure the needle is sensing that outbound radial and moving towards the center before I veer towards it, to be sure I won't wander away from it.

Of course, if I have two nav tuners available, I would have VOR2 tuned in just in case I reach my ETA for the airport and don't see it... the intersection of the two radials is a very useful tool. Even if I somehow miss even that and still don't have the field in sight, all I have to do is move one or both OBS to find out where I really am, then take it from there.

Having DME capability would obviously make this whole thing much easier, once you know the distance from VOR2 to the airport.

I agree, and it's good to mention what you've mentioned... Keeps everything in perspective, and keeps the piloting state of mind going re: navigation in general.

All we're trying to do here, is learn about VOR radial interception and tracking.

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Reply #8 - Jan 3^rd, 2008 at 10:31am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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VOR Tip 2:

If you've read this far, and are still befuddled by VORs (and have studied that thread).. Stick with us here. I promise it will click eventually. I'm prepared to stay with Part 5 until it does... So feel free to post questions, no matter how simple (or complicated) you think they might be. I've seen veteran pilots who are still intimidated by VOR navigation. All it takes is repetition and exposure (and asking questions)..

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Reply #9 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 6:26pm

SubZer0 Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2008 at 7:15am:

[quote]

However.. on a VFR flight, you'd know the winds aloft ( because you're such a thorough flight planner

), and would fly a heading direct to Airport 2; with your two VORs dialed to the intersecting radials. Then,,, whichever needle centered first would be the VOR you'd fly "TO" (or "FROM" in the case of intercepting the VOR 1, 085 radial), waiting on the other needle to center...

[img]

You've lost me here. How do you dial two VORs to the intersecting radials? The intersecting radial in the picture is the airport correct? Which is where the two radials from each VOR meet. I don't understand how you can use two VORs to get to one point. How would you tune that with the radios?

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Reply #10 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 6:51pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Quote:

You've lost me here. How do you dial two VORs to the intersecting radials? The intersecting radial in the picture is the airport correct? Which is where the two radials from each VOR meet. I don't understand how you can use two VORs to get to one point. How would you tune that with the radios?

Good question

You'd have Nav-1 tuned to VOR-1, and Nav-2 tuned to VOR-2... Then you'd dial in the two radials with each OBS..

As you flew to the airport, neither CDI would be centered.. you'd just be flying in the general direction. Eventually, you'd hit one of those radials and that CDI would center. .. Then, you start tracking that radial, waiting for the other CDI to center.

Of course, you could be such a good pre-flight planner that your heading took you right to the airport, in which case both CDIs would center simultaneously...

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Reply #11 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 7:03pm

SubZer0 Offline
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That's what I was thinking, just wanted to be sure.

So that basically means that when both of the CDIs are centered, you're right over the airport, right?

I also understand that using two VORs, you don't have to fly directly from a VOR to the airport (as I have been doing), but you can just fly there directly using two VORs. Didn't know that. Now I actually have a reason to use that VOR2 gauge Grin

Grin

Anything else I'm not catching here, Brett?

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Reply #12 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 7:31pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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You're catching on. VOR navigation in theory, is easy... it's just that the VORs themselves are kinda counter-intuitive. Once it clicks, it clicks. It's not always about flying all the way to a VOR, and then on to another VOR. Sometimes it's like what we've done here.

You'd still be using both VORs even if you followed the green course. Unless of course you wanted to keep switching frequencies and changing OBS settings to see if you were near, or at the intersection.

Quote:

So that basically means that when both of the CDIs are centered, you're right over the airport, right?

Right... when a CDI is centered, you're ON that radial (regardless of your heading). If both CDIs are centered, you're on both radials.. and there's only one place where one plane can be on both of those radials..

Also.. if you have a DME (like the MSFS C172 does).. you could just intersect one radial and then track it until you're at the known distance from that VOR.. i.e Airport-2 is on the 085 radial at DME 16.5nm

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Reply #13 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 7:38pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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ALSO.. many instrument fixes, waypoints and holds are VOR radial intersections... So it's a good thing to get comfortable with plotting them, and flying to them.

OR.. picture this: You're lost and drag out your VFR sectional. You find two VORs that you're pretty sure you can receive (within range). Start a nice, shallow turn and then commence to get yourself unlost... Tune the two vors in... spin one OBS until the CDI centers... spin the other OBS until its CDI centers... TA DA.. you're right where those two radials intersect

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Reply #14 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 7:39pm

SubZer0 Offline
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Great

Cheesy

Now that we have that cleared up, how do I find the distance of an airport from a VOR? Can this be found at SkyVector?

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Reply #15 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 7:45pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Quote:

Great

Now that we have that cleared up, how do I find the distance of an airport from a VOR? Can this be found at SkyVector?

Yes... and no. Skyvector just shows charts... if you have the VFR sectional in front of you (pick one up.. each one has a huge enough area to let you plan and fly countless flights), you can measure the distance from a VOR to an airport... OR.. if you go to www.airnav.com ; ... each airport's main page has a list of nearby nav-aids; their bearing and distance to the airport..

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Reply #16 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 8:16pm

SubZer0 Offline
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Thanks

What's next for this lesson?

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Reply #17 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 8:20pm

beaky Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 4^th, 2008 at 7:45pm:

Quote:

Great

Now that we have that cleared up, how do I find the distance of an airport from a VOR? Can this be found at SkyVector?

Yes... and no. Skyvector just shows charts... if you have the VFR sectional in front of you (pick one up.. each one has a huge enough area to let you plan and fly countless flights), you can measure the distance from a VOR to an airport... OR.. if you go to www.airnav.com ; ... each airport's main page has a list of nearby nav-aids; their bearing and distance to the airport..

Another simple way is to look at the MSFS navlog: if the VOR in question is loaded as a waypoint, the log will show you bearing and distance to the next waypoint, which is your destination.
VORs are aligned with local magnetic north, so assuming MSFS has the local variation plugged-in, the mag heading it gives you will be the same as the number of the outbound radial you want. this does not account for wind, of course...

But Airnav is better if you don't want to bother making up and saving a plan using the sim. Most airport listings list more than one VOR or NDB nearby with bearings and distance, and they also sometimes include airport diagrams as well as all relevant runway info.

Best of all, of course, for any scenario, is to get a real chart (pilot shops throw them away, unused, when they expire) and find the correct radial and distances yourself. You don't need to buy a plotter- the scale is on the chart. Mark 10 nm increments on a piece of paper or ruler or use dividers, and you're good to go. This will work even if you have printed a chart from skyvector and it's not full-sized.

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Reply #18 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 8:47pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Next is the fine and fading art of NDB use

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Reply #19 - Jan 7^th, 2008 at 6:46pm

Mobius Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 4^th, 2008 at 8:47pm:

Next is the fine and fading art of NDB use

Yipee! *Slides into desk and waits patiently...* Grin

Grin

I could use some NDB/ADF practice, since I've only ever used the ADF to listen to AM radio. Wink

Wink

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Reply #20 - Jan 8^th, 2008 at 9:31pm

beaky Offline
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Brings back fond memories of flying direct to-and holding endlessly at- the Paterson NDB near KTEB...

"Dah-deet deet dah, deet dah, dah-deet deet deet..."

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Reply #21 - Feb 4^th, 2008 at 3:15am

commoner Offline
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....mmm......seems a lot of trouble to me........I just set the GPS.(Cost a fortune so I use it).. connect it to the AP and go to SLEEP..........when I wake up my trusty c172 is doing circuits of the selected airport ...........commoner Wink

Wink

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."

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Reply #22 - Feb 4^th, 2008 at 7:50am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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I've always thought of a flight simulator as a tool for simulating flight Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

More specifically, simulating the job of being a pilot Wink

Wink

That includes flying the plane.. and navigating .. If you're just going to sit back and watch a GPS and autopilot do it.. you might as well be a passenger

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Reply #23 - Feb 4^th, 2008 at 1:33pm

beaky Offline
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commoner wrote on Feb 4^th, 2008 at 3:15am:

....mmm......seems a lot of trouble to me........I just set the GPS.(Cost a fortune so I use it).. connect it to the AP and go to SLEEP..........when I wake up my trusty c172 is doing circuits of the selected airport ...........commoner Wink

Wink

I hope you have traffic turned off! Wink

Wink

Last few years , when I see traffic in RL that ought to see me but appears clueless, I assume they are watching that doggone GPS like it was TV, or yes, perhaps sleeping while the AP and the GPS do their magic... Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

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Reply #24 - Feb 5^th, 2008 at 3:12am

commoner Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Feb 4^th, 2008 at 7:50am:

I've always thought of a flight simulator as a tool for simulating flight Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

More specifically, simulating the job of being a pilot Wink

Wink

That includes flying the plane.. and navigating .. If you're just going to sit back and watch a GPS and autopilot do it.. you might as well be a passenger

LOL...you mean nobody uses the GPS and AP.........what a bloomin' waste...........commoner Shocked

Shocked

Grin

Seriously though,the Flight Simulator is a thing for all men...whether you like to be flying......designing scenery....creating planes (for guys who merely like to fly).........or merely just hanging around the SimV forum trying to help simmers with problems..........it's all a part of the great world of FS.........we all enjoy it in our own particular way.........don't you agree Brett? Wink

Wink

PS... this is not RL...in real life I look out the windows......... Grin

Grin

Grin

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."

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Reply #25 - Feb 5^th, 2008 at 9:06am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Quote:

LOL...you mean nobody uses the GPS and AP.........what a bloomin' waste...........commoner

Seriously though,the Flight Simulator is a thing for all men...whether you like to be flying......designing scenery....creating planes (for guys who merely like to fly).........or merely just hanging around the SimV forum trying to help simmers with problems..........it's all a part of the great world of FS.........we all enjoy it in our own particular way.........don't you agree Brett?

PS... this is not RL...in real life I look out the windows.........

Oh for sure..

The Sim is for any number of people, for any number of reasons... I spend just as much mental energy building MSFS models, as I do flying the Simulator... but.. umm errr... we're concentrating on the realistic piloting aspect here. Right in the middle of navigation fundementals.

"Flight School" .. "Sim Flight Trainning" Wink

Wink

I posted in the 'Real Aviation' section, about a real instrument flight I just took... I can promise you two times twice.. that simming has helped keep my real pilot frame of mind sharp.. and re-teaching these fundementals to fellow simmers has been as good for me, as it has been fun.

I too turn the MSFS C172 over to the autopilot quite often... and let a real autopilot fly for me, when one's available. But there are no GPSs and autopilots when you're learning the basics... both in the sim, and in RL

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Reply #26 - Feb 13^th, 2008 at 12:31am

Sakeen Ex Member

Couldn't you fly DCT to VOR2 until intercepting VOR1 085 outbound, set VOR2 OBS to 155 and fly 085 until VOR2 shows crossover?

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Reply #27 - Feb 13^th, 2008 at 6:58am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Quote:

Couldn't you fly DCT to VOR2 until intercepting VOR1 085 outbound, set VOR2 OBS to 155 and fly 085 until VOR2 shows crossover?

ABSOLUTELY !

And an excellent way to do it, VFR. I was hoping someone would suggest that.

You wouldn't want to file it that way, IFR though. Unless the intersection was a named waypoint/fix (and it quite probably would be, if Airport 2 had several, published approaches)

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Reply #28 - Feb 19^th, 2008 at 7:39pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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** Bump ( see thread: "Putting it all together" ) **

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