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Sim Jet Training: Introduction (Read 187 times)
Jan 2nd, 2008 at 2:38am

ThomasKaira   Offline
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...

This is the first part of this lesson series, and as such it is imperative to warn you: If you are not EXTREMELY confident in your basic flying skills, advanced techniques, are not instrument and multi-engine rated, you are NOT ready to begin flying these planes. They are the largest, most complex aircraft existing today, they do not handle like your normal piston-engined four-seater Piper Cherokee or Cessna Skyhawk, they require you to learn how to fly all over again. Everything about flying a jet, including the ground-spent planning time, requires precision far greater than in your standard propeller-driven leisure aircraft. As such, I have decided to begin the lessons talking about the old jets and how to fly them. Why, you might ask? Because: as I would answer, to fly the 747-200, for example, you actually need to know how everything works. Modern jets have computerized the flight engineer, and as such, less and less pilots are actually learning how an air conditioning pack works, or why the pitot tube is such a vital probe. This is what I am here to teach, and hopefully you are here to learn.

As I said before, jets are not flown the same way as your Cessna. There are many reasons for this:

A: The plane is A LOT larger than your Cessna, you are dealing with many tons of aluminum and plexiglass, fuel, and humanity. This, along with the engine being completely different (and a lot more complex), means you will ALWAYS be flying at least twice as fast as your Cessna Skyhawk can.

B: Air Traffic Control plays a vital part in both types of plane, but there are certain other rules a jet must follow, everything from takeoff to landing requires a lot more interaction with the controller in the tower, and as air travel is now such a popular travel method these days, you will need to cooperate with the hundreds of other airline jets with the same aims as you.

C: Despite the popular belief I have noticed on this forum, flying one of these requires an extremely involved pilot, you will find, once you've broken the barrier of the "lazy-boy autopilot," that without this system, flying your jet would become incredibly stressful, and I am not talking about the 3+ hours you will spend tweaking away at your yoke. The autopilot is the saving grace that allows you to perform everything else you need to do, (managing speed and altitude and letting the autopilot actually fly you there, managing fuel, navigation, communication, and keeping the lunches of the 8 tons of humanity behind you in their stomaches.) A jet requires dedication not because they are boring to fly, but because of how much you must manage at a given time.

There is more, but I'll talk more about differences in the actual lessons. In the meantime, you should now know what to expect.
 
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Reply #1 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:34am

stuart1044   Offline
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Looking forward to these lessons, i am quite confident in flying jets, but im sure there will be something i am missing and i am looking forward to learning them Smiley
 

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Reply #2 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 7:53am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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This is going to be fun, and educational. I don't fly tubes very often, because I know that I'm not doing it realistically. I have enough exposure to real, jet pilots to get the basics...but I've never dedicated myself to doing it realistically. Heck.. I got my hands full flying a C172 realistically (and I fly REAL ones, pretty regularly).

Before I even fire up the sim.. I decide on my "mission" (i.e... how many people are flying with me.. where we're going and how much baggage we'll have)...and then go about it just like I would for real. I check and double check weather (deciding on whether or not to file IFR, where my fuel stops will need to be, etc.). It's a pretty involved process (and keeps me on my pilot-toes).. but flying jets, is that type of mindset, squared and on steriods.. Cheesy Half of succesfully negotiating one of those monsters full of souls any distance, is done on the ground, before even climbing into the cockpit.

The one area where I really need practice, is planning the route to be filed (since every commercial jet flight is IFR), and getting the whole mission clear in my head before firing up engine 1...

I'm really looking forward to these threads...  Smiley
 
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Reply #3 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 8:21am

C   Offline
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Should be interesting. I'll add a little of my (limited, although more than most!) tube flying experience if required... Smiley
 
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Reply #4 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:01pm

expat   Offline
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Charlie wrote on Jan 2nd, 2008 at 8:21am:
Should be interesting. I'll add a little of my (limited, although more than most!) tube flying experience if required... Smiley


They teach modesty at Cranwell now Grin Grin Grin

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Reply #5 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 1:22pm

C   Offline
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expat wrote on Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:01pm:
Charlie wrote on Jan 2nd, 2008 at 8:21am:
Should be interesting. I'll add a little of my (limited, although more than most!) tube flying experience if required... Smiley


They teach modesty at Cranwell now Grin Grin Grin

Matt



I call 14hrs (ish) limited! Grin (mind you, I'm sure the sim counts too! Grin).
 
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Reply #6 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:02pm

Wii   Offline
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I'm probably not ready for this because I only know the basics of flying single and double props.
 
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Reply #7 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:07pm

beaky   Offline
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I like what I see so far, but if I may offer a wee criticism: why not start with a trainer-type jet first? I understand skipping over turboprops altogether, a lot of people have no interest in planes with propellers... but since the basic differences between jet and piston flight have more to do with the powerplant and the wing and how they work together than the size of the aircraft or how flights are planned, executed and supported, it seems to me more sensible to start smaller and simpler, then quickly move on to the big "buses".  Any of the military trainers spring to mind, although again, real "tube jockeys" learn most of what they need to fly big iron by staying with pistons into their multi training then learn how to handle fire and airliner-type subsystems behind the controls of a turboprop twin... jet trainers are normally used to teach jet fighter procedures. But it's also a good intro to taming turbines and slick airframes.

Like I said, it's your idea and I see where you're coming from; just a thought if you really hope to introduce inexperienced pilots to simulated jet flight.
 

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Reply #8 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:38pm

C   Offline
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beaky wrote on Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:07pm:
I like what I see so far, but if I may offer a wee criticism: why not start with a trainer-type jet first? I understand skipping over turboprops altogether, a lot of people have no interest in planes with propellers... but since the basic differences between jet and piston flight have more to do with the powerplant and the wing and how they work together than the size of the aircraft or how flights are planned, executed and supported, it seems to me more sensible to start smaller and simpler, then quickly move on to the big "buses".  Any of the military trainers spring to mind, although again, real "tube jockeys" learn most of what they need to fly big iron by staying with pistons into their multi training then learn how to handle fire and airliner-type subsystems behind the controls of a turboprop twin... jet trainers are normally used to teach jet fighter procedures. But it's also a good intro to taming turbines and slick airframes.

Like I said, it's your idea and I see where you're coming from; just a thought if you really hope to introduce inexperienced pilots to simulated jet flight.


To be fair, a lot of people go straight onto jets via nothing bigger than a Piper Seneca/Seminole and a simulator type rating. In my experience the biggest I'd flown before the Funbus was only a standard B200 King Air. Smiley
 
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Reply #9 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:50pm

BFMF   Offline
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Trying to compete with the PPL training series...? Grin

Sounds like an interesting combo of having training series' with jets and basic PPL, and not that there is anything wrong with you starting this, but I almost fear your typical 'instant virtual airline captain' who hasn't mastered the basics, and is still posting threads asking how to land is going to skip over the PPL flight training series for this. Probably nothing, and i'm mostly thinking out loud.... Smiley
 
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Reply #10 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:59pm

FsNovice   Offline
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Whilst i have never flown a bit jet RW, but i fly for a VA and as such fly jets in the sim almost daily, as realistically as possible in FS, using vatsim often as well, i'm sure i will learn some neat little tricks from this series as well. I know my proccedures become rather slack at times, due to repetitiveness and the "know it all" attitude that you get after flying them so often. Going to watch this series with interest.
 

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Reply #11 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 6:04pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Be sure to send those who go blasting into Bravo airspace at 250kias, and try to come over the numbers at 200, or say, "What ?", when asked to hold at a fix, over to the PPL training..   Wink
 
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Reply #12 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 7:11pm

beaky   Offline
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My criticism aside, it should be a good resource for a lot of new simmers who got into it because they want to fly the airliners... and those of us who rarely do so. Wink
 

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Reply #13 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 7:15pm

beaky   Offline
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Charlie wrote on Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:38pm:
To be fair, a lot of people go straight onto jets via nothing bigger than a Piper Seneca/Seminole and a simulator type rating. In my experience the biggest I'd flown before the Funbus was only a standard B200 King Air. Smiley


That surprises me, that pilots would go from pistons to jets without some time in a King Air or similar... but I guess if you get the airline-quality sim training it's not so big a leap.
When I first tried my hand at flying the big rigs in FS9, I was woefully unprepared, mostly because of the care and feeding of the turbines, and the whole issue of energy management in general... but I got the hang of it eventually, so maybe that's not such a big deal.
 

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Reply #14 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 7:28pm

ThomasKaira   Offline
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The main reason that I started these threads is because of those "Instant Airline Captains." I have had plenty of time in FS with the single-engined props, twin-engined props, etc, I know what I'm doing, I have broke the code, as you would say.

Now, back to the purpose, Instant Airlne Captains do not know the basics of flying, I do, that's why I'm here, and that is why I am starting with the basics all over again, as well as explaining how the systems work so you have a better understanding of how these planes work (and I have just finished the thread on basic flying techniques so you know a bit on how to fly these planes).

Do note, however, that we are not yet ready to try a first flight yet, as I have yet to talk about how to manage that incredible engine power, and how the swept wings work so differently from a straight wing. Whenever we reach a point where we know enough to try something, I will let you know.

BTW: The strategy for starting now is easy referral to Brett's PPL in case one does not yet know what I am talking about, and we will be starting in the cockpit of an ERJ-145 for all checkrides. We must first get that ATP license out of the way.

Brett: once you get the details of shared-cockpit checkrides, I'd like to be able to do the same for the ATP license and jet checkouts.
 
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Reply #15 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 8:27pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
Brett: once you get the details of shared-cockpit checkrides, I'd like to be able to do the same for the ATP license and jet checkouts.


Absoulutely  Smiley   I've done quite a few shared cockpit, checkrides.... even helped a real pilot prep for his real instrument checkride. It's an incredible tool.. and gobs of fun..
 
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Reply #16 - Jan 3rd, 2008 at 1:40pm

C   Offline
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beaky wrote on Jan 2nd, 2008 at 7:15pm:
Charlie wrote on Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:38pm:
To be fair, a lot of people go straight onto jets via nothing bigger than a Piper Seneca/Seminole and a simulator type rating. In my experience the biggest I'd flown before the Funbus was only a standard B200 King Air. Smiley


That surprises me, that pilots would go from pistons to jets without some time in a King Air or similar... but I guess if you get the airline-quality sim training it's not so big a leap.


I find it a little surprising too, but then again, I suppose it all boils down to money. If you can do an IR in a piston Seneca or Seminole for example, then the school aren't going to have anything like a King Air in their fleet if they can help it.

I probably had about 70hrs combined on the King Air and its simulator, and then probably 25-30hrs in the VC10 sim before flying the real thing, so the real "leap" is done in the synthetic environment. Smiley
 
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Reply #17 - Jan 3rd, 2008 at 10:17pm

beaky   Offline
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Charlie wrote on Jan 3rd, 2008 at 1:40pm:
I probably had about 70hrs combined on the King Air and its simulator, and then probably 25-30hrs in the VC10 sim before flying the real thing, so the real "leap" is done in the synthetic environment. Smiley


I get all trembly just thinking about flying a proper VC10 sim; LOL... must be sheer magic to get to crew the real thing. Grin I always enjoy flying it in FS9, although I usually shy away from big jets (yawn).
You've probably mentioned this already but: how many flight hours so far for you in the VC10?

Would you agree that transitioning to kerosene-burners requires some mental retooling (although I'll bet once you get used to it, it's much less skull-work than babysitting pistons)?
 

...
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Reply #18 - Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:32pm

C   Offline
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beaky wrote on Jan 3rd, 2008 at 10:17pm:
You've probably mentioned this already but: how many flight hours so far for you in the VC10?


Not very many, but increasing all the time. Wink
beaky wrote on Jan 3rd, 2008 at 10:17pm:
Would you agree that transitioning to kerosene-burners requires some mental retooling (although I'll bet once you get used to it, it's much less skull-work than babysitting pistons)?


Yes, and that is where the sim helps out a lot. In my earlier flying training there was a lot of emphasis on being able to "keep ahead of the aeroplane", particularly when flying low-level, or leading a formation - thinking well ahead.

What I've noticed with a big jet, aside from the obvious handling differences, is the need to be way way ahead, planning far further ahead, such as briefing times for the descent for example. A lot more energy management comes into play too, and anticipation; with the jets you have to think a few seconds ahead with power changes, as it takes a few seconds for the to spool up; on a piston single you may start levelling off 100-200ft from the required level, in a jet, you start the mechanics of it 1000-2000ft from the desired level. After a while though it all becomes natural...


...I hope! Grin
 
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