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Is there any interest in Jet A civil dieselization (Read 2126 times)
Dec 30th, 2007 at 12:56am

John_Murphy   Offline
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Is there any interest in Jet A civil dieselization?  If so, I'm in the process of developing a diesel for private aviation sims that use piston engines in FS9.  I have more tweeking to do but I just finished a flight using the Lake250 as a testbed, and went from Key West to Southern Maine @ 25,000 feet in about 8 hours -- NON-STOP.  If there's interest, I'll put together several partial files which can be cut and pasted to any FS aircraft config file -- one for a Cessna 172/Maule, the Lake 250, and others for prototype diesels under development for GA community.
   I'd just like to know if there's interest.
   John Murphy
 
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Reply #1 - Dec 30th, 2007 at 3:41am

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There is always interest in new ideas John. I personally was trying to make a diesel "effect" engine by playing around with the fuel flow in the aircraft.cfg but couldn't get the consistency I wanted. Please tell us more!
 

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Reply #2 - Dec 30th, 2007 at 6:23pm

John_Murphy   Offline
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ozzy72 wrote on Dec 30th, 2007 at 3:41am:
There is always interest in new ideas John. I personally was trying to make a diesel "effect" engine by playing around with the fuel flow in the aircraft.cfg but couldn't get the consistency I wanted. Please tell us more!


Ozzy, first, a diesel doesn't use spark to ignite fuel, so you can't just fiddle w/fuel flow and get diesel;
  2nd, the aircraft diesels don't use manual prop pitch -- this gives more thrust for the buck, MUCH higher rates of climb -- I read that a dieselized Maule has a rate of climb of over 3,000 fpm at sea level, and like a jet engine the higher the altitude, the better the performance.  On my little 8 hour flight, Airspeed indicated ~ 125 kts, but true was closer to 180 kts, and that's just adjusting major engine factors.  I think I might be able to get even more range on 90 gals of Jet A.
  Only 2 "bad" things are:  Jet A weighs more than Avgas -- but with smaller fuel tanks (60 gals?) that shouldn't be a factor; Other "bad" thing is that a diesel gulps air like a jet, so unless designers modify the mdl files with much larger air intakes on cowlings, the planes won't look right....
   Files will follow in several weeks or a month.
   For now, happy flying!
   John Murphy
 
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Reply #3 - Dec 30th, 2007 at 9:54pm

John_Murphy   Offline
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John_Murphy wrote on Dec 30th, 2007 at 6:23pm:
ozzy72 wrote on Dec 30th, 2007 at 3:41am:
There is always interest in new ideas John. I personally was trying to make a diesel "effect" engine by playing around with the fuel flow in the aircraft.cfg but couldn't get the consistency I wanted. Please tell us more!


Ozzy, first, a diesel doesn't use spark to ignite fuel, so you can't just fiddle w/fuel flow and get diesel;
 2nd, the aircraft diesels don't use manual prop pitch -- this gives more thrust for the buck, MUCH higher rates of climb -- I read that a dieselized Maule has a rate of climb of over 3,000 fpm at sea level, and like a jet engine the higher the altitude, the better the performance.  On my little 8 hour flight, Airspeed indicated ~ 125 kts, but true was closer to 180 kts, and that's just adjusting major engine factors.  I think I might be able to get even more range on 90 gals of Jet A.
 Only 2 "bad" things are:  Jet A weighs more than Avgas -- but with smaller fuel tanks (60 gals?) that shouldn't be a factor; Other "bad" thing is that a diesel gulps air like a jet, so unless designers modify the mdl files with much larger air intakes on cowlings, the planes won't look right....
  Files will follow in several weeks or a month.
  For now, happy flying!
  John Murphy



Progress Report:  As of 9:30 PM Miami USA time, I was able to get most of the bugs out of the John L Woodward Lake Diesel SeaFury, AND (hopefully) more range from it too.  Bird climbs like a homesick angel, easily topping 25,000 feet while sipping fuel at 8.5 - 9 gph -- Jet A fuel, I might add.  The Maule testbed referred to above is currently restricted to 12,000 feet pending full FAA Certification.  Also, like any diesel, combustion does not require anything but "glow plugs" and a crack of the throttle to start.  Once started, the only way to kill the engine is to stop the flow of fuel.

Although further tweeking is required, look for cut-and-paste partial files and probably a full FS9 Cessna default 172 Diesel with a better 2-d and 3-d instrument panel as my first contribution in a while.  If nothing goes wrong, look for the Cessna 172 Diesel at the end of January, 2008.

JET A WILL RULE PISTON-POWERED GENERAL AVIATION!!!

John Murphy
 
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Reply #4 - Jan 7th, 2008 at 12:47am

John_Murphy   Offline
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Dieselization update:

I've now gotten the FS9 default Cessna 172 Dieseled.  As is, I put a Herzog 2-bladed constant speed prop mated to the Diesel Engine as per prototype, but I have some tweaking and repainting to do.  I've also redesigned the 2-D panel to let it have readable gauges AND radios.  Progress reports as they come up.  So far, both the Lake SeaFury AND the new Cessna 172 Diesel climb like homesick angels and sip Jet A fuel like a fine wine.  Both probably have at least 1/3rd more range than their Avgas counterparts.

John Murphy
 
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Reply #5 - Jan 7th, 2008 at 5:40am

ozzy72   Offline
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I know John, I conducted a lot of experiments using the aircraft.cfg trying to make things work the way they should but I couldn't crack it!
I can't wait to see the results of your labours Wink
 

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Reply #6 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 9:55pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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I'm really intrigued by JetA diesels in GA  Smiley

It's gonna be a tricky to replicate it in the current cfg...

As far as I know, MSFS only allows for fixed pitch and constant-speed props (where the pilot controls the prop rpm).

With popularity of this FADEC engine/prop manager (our club's Lberty XL2 has it), I can see where we'll need a way to model it in the sim.

Right now.. I'd imagine that limiting engine RPM and tinkering with the prop's thrust scalar is the best we can do...
 
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Reply #7 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 11:46pm

John_Murphy   Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 9th, 2008 at 9:55pm:
I'm really intrigued by JetA diesels in GA  Smiley

It's gonna be a tricky to replicate it in the current cfg...

As far as I know, MSFS only allows for fixed pitch and constant-speed props (where the pilot controls the prop rpm).

With popularity of this FADEC engine/prop manager (our club's Lberty XL2 has it), I can see where we'll need a way to model it in the sim.

Right now.. I'd imagine that limiting engine RPM and tinkering with the prop's thrust scalar is the best we can do...



Brett, I've done it -- TWICE, and the diesel performance corresponds very favorably to the performance figures given in the November 2007 article of PLANE&PILOT entitled Diesel Maule: A Classic Goes Green.  It can be done, and for any piston engine on FS!  I will shortly have at least 2 files to upload, one for a 250 hp Piston Engine, one for a 125-150 hp piston engine.
   NEVER SAY NEVER, Brett!
   Best, John Murphy
 
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Reply #8 - Jan 10th, 2008 at 7:13am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Excellent !  I'll be waiting to try them out   Smiley

 
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Reply #9 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 11:32pm

John_Murphy   Offline
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I just spent an enjoyable test flight of the Dieselized default Cessna 172.  Bird went from Key West, Fl straight to New Orleans, LA in 4 hours with ~ 9 gallons of Jet A in reserve.  She flies at ~ 100 knots and I had her up to 20,000 feet for most of the flight, and at altitudes of 5,000 feet, the range would probably be a gut-busting 8-10 hours.
   Still have to upgrade guages to Dieselization.
   The cut-and-paste file will be either 100, 150, 250, or 300 hp, but both birds perform up to specs, or as close as I can get them.
    Am working as fast as I can, and as soon as I can, I'll upload the first -- a reworked Cessna 172....
    John Murphy
 
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Reply #10 - Jan 12th, 2008 at 12:00pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Can't wait, but fair warning... I'll be tough on it come testing time..  Smiley
 
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Reply #11 - Jan 12th, 2008 at 9:37pm

John_Murphy   Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 12th, 2008 at 12:00pm:
Can't wait, but fair warning... I'll be tough on it come testing time..  Smiley



Brett, just keep it positive and I can take it -- in fact, I wouldn't have it any other way!  Just understand how the Jet A piston diesel works with the Herzog prop and the very limited compromises I had to make using what's available with default FS9 and try not to penalize me for that and I'll be happy.  I don't know how to make the proper guages, but can modify XML files a little.

   BTW, I just looked up the flight characteristics of the default Cessna 172 in the book "Wings of Cessna: Model 120 to the Citation X" by Edward H. Phillips, and the flight parameters I gave the default Avgas Cessna 172 is pretty much on the money, except the airspeed could be between 5 and 15 knots faster.

   I spent 6 years as co-pilot to one of the best former USAAF multi-piston-engine certified Flight Instructor/mechanic I've had the pleasure to knew.  It was an honor calling him my Dad.
    We flew a Cessna 205, sooo I know a little about how piston planes fly, esp. the C205.  Dad used to say that a well ballanced plane - be it a Boeing B-17 or Piper Cub requires little or no trimming if the CG is right, and that altitude in that ideal condition, should require no more that prop pitch and throttle.  I adhere to that when redoing flight characteristics....

John Murphy
 
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Reply #12 - Jan 12th, 2008 at 9:52pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Tough but fair   Smiley   

All I'd really scrutinize is the performance at different altitudes, and corresponding fuel-flow... If it looks good, I'll make some gauges for it..

I've got about 1100 hours in C172s  About 300 in high-performance Cessnas (C182, C210, C206, C207) and over 200 in C177RGs..  And a mixed bag of; Saratoga, Mooney201, Warrior, Arrow time... and my twin time is in C310s, and a Senneca..
 
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Reply #13 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 11:43pm

John_Murphy   Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jan 12th, 2008 at 9:52pm:
Tough but fair   Smiley  

All I'd really scrutinize is the performance at different altitudes, and corresponding fuel-flow... If it looks good, I'll make some gauges for it..

I've got about 1100 hours in C172s  About 300 in high-performance Cessnas (C182, C210, C206, C207) and over 200 in C177RGs..  And a mixed bag of; Saratoga, Mooney201, Warrior, Arrow time... and my twin time is in C310s, and a Senneca..


Brett, contact me email and I'll send you what I have so far in about a week or 2.  I'd like a chance try a couple of things with the c172 prop.  Diesel's still giving it way too much climb power (unless you only give the bird ~30-40% power).  Plus, need time to write a short primer on dieselization.

   BTW, I'd love to build the plane my Dad and I flew, but can't build radios for it -- the Cessna 205 had Narco Mk VIII nav/com, Narco Mk III Nav 2, Norelco(?) ADF, Narco DME w/2 dials, one for distance from radio, 2nd for optionial ground speed.  No autopilot but we did have a suction-generated wing leveler which replaced the 2-min. turn.  Leveler had functions of ball and 2-min. turn guage, but off the the bottom left was an on-off for wing leveler, plus a knob to give an exact 2-minute turn using ailerons.  I've been able to simulate partial function by adding the FS2K Concorde wing-level button to the auto-pilots, but I fear this won't work in FSX.
   I got the airframe and flight characteristics for the 1961-1970 205/06/10 in fs5 almost perfect (I was even able to get virtual interior w/6 seats, one pilot (co-pilot optional)) without bleedthrough, semi-animated prop, semi-see-thru cabin windows, and cowl flaps that automatically closed and opened - keyed to airspeed -- then Microsoft switched aviation factories on me.... - sigh --
    Haven't matered G-max but still have the AFX File for the old bird.  Oh, well.   Dieselization first....
    John Murphy


 
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Reply #14 - Jan 17th, 2008 at 12:15am

John_Murphy   Offline
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John_Murphy wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 11:32pm:
I just spent an enjoyable test flight of the Dieselized default Cessna 172.  Bird went from Key West, Fl straight to New Orleans, LA in 4 hours with ~ 9 gallons of Jet A in reserve.  She flies at ~ 100 knots and I had her up to 20,000 feet for most of the flight, and at altitudes of 5,000 feet, the range would probably be a gut-busting 8-10 hours.
  Still have to upgrade guages to Dieselization.
  The cut-and-paste file will be either 100, 150, 250, or 300 hp, but both birds perform up to specs, or as close as I can get them.
   Am working as fast as I can, and as soon as I can, I'll upload the first -- a reworked Cessna 172....
   John Murphy  


01/17/08 UPDATE:
I just did a test takeoff on the new Diesel Jet A C172 with a 150 hp diesel and Herzog Constant Speed prop, and got fuel flow of ~ 6 gph, rpm of 1500, 18 inches of manifold pressure and a cruise speed of 90 knots @ 5000 feet -- very comperable to the November 2007 Plane and Pilot article of the Diesel Maule, including the start-up characteristics of Diesels.  Have to get the airspeed up to ~ 100-105 knots at neutral trim, but everything's proceeding on schedule.
   John Murphy
 
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