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For Everyone Having DX10 and DX9 SP2 Problems… (Read 6836 times)
Reply #15 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 10:06pm

NickN   Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317
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This coming from someone who installed Acceleration, then uninstalled it and posted a review which suggested the software was uninstalled because it did not perform right... and then found out after the fact from me, Acceleration was not the problem.

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1197600092

and who also said and I quote: "Now the best attribute of FSX Acceleration, in my opinion, is the un-install. "

Its a shame your review did not come after a proper assessment based on the correct method of evaluation but seeing how you are not part of the development or hardware/software testing community, I can understand the ignorance.

And since you are running Vista and DX10, I guess you have an intellectual basis for the comments above.

You are running Vista and DX10, aren't you?    

Quote:
I believe this is enough to give an idea of how this package worked for me running XPS Home with the latest Nvidia driver and version of DX9


Of course not!

Your comments above make sense to me now.  Roll Eyes



I am just tickled pink you are happy and satisfied with your hardware

Then my message was not addressed to you, and, I seem to recall the title of the thread was "For Everyone Having DX10 and DX9 SP2 Problems…"

If you have none, your comments are moot and have no bearing on this thread.


Thank you for your feedback
 
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Reply #16 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 11:57pm

Flight Ace   Offline
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I Fly Sim!
Virginia

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NickN wrote on Dec 21st, 2007 at 10:06pm:
This coming from someone who installed Acceleration, then uninstalled it and posted a review which suggested the software was uninstalled because it did not perform right... and then found out after the fact from me, Acceleration was not the problem.

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1197600092

and who also said and I quote: "Now the best attribute of FSX Acceleration, in my opinion, is the un-install. "

Its a shame your review did not come after a proper assessment based on the correct method of evaluation but seeing how you are not part of the development or hardware/software testing community, I can understand the ignorance.

And since you are running Vista and DX10, I guess you have an intellectual basis for the comments above.

You are running Vista and DX10, aren't you?    

Quote:
I believe this is enough to give an idea of how this package worked for me running XPS Home with the latest Nvidia driver and version of DX9


Of course not!

Your comments above make sense to me now.  Roll Eyes



I am just tickled pink you are happy and satisfied with your hardware

Then my message was not addressed to you, and, I seem to recall the title of the thread was "For Everyone Having DX10 and DX9 SP2 Problems…"

If you have none, your comments are moot and have no bearing on this thread.


Thank you for your feedback


My posts were honest ones giving out information as it happened getting SP2 running on my PC. As you may recall I finally off loaded some aircraft and your sun and then I was able to install and run SP2 successfully. I agreed with you that a fresh install was the best way to go. I have added back several aircraft and your sun. Now to address your comments. Years ago I wrote the software that automated the administrative activities of a large municipal office facility. I have managed a laboratory test facility for a large corporation. I have a son that formed, managed and sold several early game companies. So you see maybe I am not an expert in your field but I am not totally ignorant, as you put it, when it comes to development and test activities. As for you saying what I said is moot. If that’s what you and the community wants, so be it. This will be my last post as I am getting too old for this. As for you, you are a bright person but should tone down some of your remarks. Also you have a habit of providing answers with numerous threads, so many, that one forgets what the original problem was. Anyway, its been fun, and a Merry Christmas to all.
 

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Reply #17 - Dec 22nd, 2007 at 5:44am

rodericksnr   Offline
Colonel
remember when beer foamed
and water didn't?
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Listenup all you experts out there Angry We, the great majority I suspect, who read this forum, depend on your knowledge and willingness to share same with the rest of us.
It upsets us when you fallout. Its like watching your parents argue Cry Cry
Please  continue to share, debate and inform the numpties (thats scottish for lesser informed persons) among us who depend on you to keep our frames above 5fps Smiley
 

Roddy...
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Reply #18 - Dec 22nd, 2007 at 6:17am

macca22au   Offline
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There are no old and bold
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Melbourne, Australia

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I, too, am caught in the middle of all this, and feel like a spectator at a tennis match.

Like so many others I have come to rely heavily on the advice that I have received from this forum, and even though we have never met, I have come to consider Nick, Flighterace, the late Miltestpilot, Alrot and others as friends.

I have made the decision to update to one of the new quadcore 1950 series cards, with a new motherboard.  However I have an 8800GTX and I did not plan to update it - until I do my last upgrade at the end of 2008 (when I finish full-time work at age 70 DV).

Now I have two vehemently expressed opinions -

one that says ditch the nV for the ATi due out in North America early 2008, although how early in Australia is a moot point.  Also the US price will undoubtedly translate into a $1000+.

the other which says no way the nV 8800 runs well without the problems listed.

It's made even worse as my 8800 has an electrical fault and is away for repair or replacement and has never been tested with SP2.

What do I do in the face of these strenuosly argued assessments?  I'm with rodericksnr - we need you.

As a public servant I know that indecision is the key to flexibility:  is that my strategy?
 
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Reply #19 - Dec 22nd, 2007 at 6:59am

macca22au   Offline
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There are no old and bold
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Sorry it is a QX9650 CPU.
 
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Reply #20 - Dec 22nd, 2007 at 9:01am

NickN   Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317
*****
 




macca22au, nothing I posted said, hinted or suggested to "ditch the nV for the ATi due out in North America early 2008"


My statements were pointed directly at those seeing the list of issues I posted. If you are not seeing any of those issues then what I said has no bearing on you.

And lets take that a step further.. if you do start to see any of those symptoms, you will know their source and instead of spending mundane hours drudging through threads trying to find the FSX fix for something you will never find a fix for, you can target that time and energy elsewhere.


I have been posting that the 8000 series core issues were manufacture related since the day that card was released in October of last year so nothing I have said here in this thread is of any surprise. My goal was to make sure that those seeing the list of issues I posted realize that the problems they are seeing are not a game programming related but are in fact a video card core/drive design issues.


I also said quite clearly that I could not make any assessment about the newer cards Nvidia will be releasing in February.




What Flight Ace posted above was nothing but a continuation of the argument and obvious frustration with me he presented in this thread http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1197600092


And last, if someone wishes to take their ball and go home, that is up to them. Nothing I said in response to his rhetoric was untrue or an attack.

It was a correct response generated in the same light he wished to communicate with me.



 
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Reply #21 - Dec 23rd, 2007 at 6:03am

macca22au   Offline
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There are no old and bold
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Thanks Nick for that explanation - just occasionally a private dispute becomes less than civil, and for us poor simmers in the middle, we can't pick who is right and who is wrong.

However I am sure in fact, in spite of what I say, tht when the new card turns up in March in Oz as a big winner, I'll turn my back on prudence and buy again.

Sometime, sometime, there surely must be a rig that allows us to get the max out of FSX.  It is the Holy Grail which like the knights of old we blindly and passionately seek forsaking all other.
 
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Reply #22 - Dec 23rd, 2007 at 12:06pm

Flight Ace   Offline
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I Fly Sim!
Virginia

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macca22au wrote on Dec 22nd, 2007 at 6:17am:
I, too, am caught in the middle of all this, and feel like a spectator at a tennis match.

Like so many others I have come to rely heavily on the advice that I have received from this forum, and even though we have never met, I have come to consider Nick, Flighterace, the late Miltestpilot, Alrot and others as friends.

I have made the decision to update to one of the new quadcore 1950 series cards, with a new motherboard.  However I have an 8800GTX and I did not plan to update it - until I do my last upgrade at the end of 2008 (when I finish full-time work at age 70 DV).

Now I have two vehemently expressed opinions -

one that says ditch the nV for the ATi due out in North America early 2008, although how early in Australia is a moot point.  Also the US price will undoubtedly translate into a $1000+.

the other which says no way the nV 8800 runs well without the problems listed.

It's made even worse as my 8800 has an electrical fault and is away for repair or replacement and has never been tested with SP2.

What do I do in the face of these strenuosly argued assessments?  I'm with rodericksnr - we need you.

As a public servant I know that indecision is the key to flexibility:  is that my strategy?




macca22au,

My system runs on an E6850 dual core CPU, an 8800 GTX video card, and an nForce 680i motherboard. I have 4 Gigs of RAM, which is not fully utilized now but will when I upgrade to Vista/DX10. My OS is XP Home with DX9. My settings for FSX/ SP2 are all check on or at their highest with the exception of water which I have at High 1x and Light Bloom which is off. This allows me to enjoy the full compliment of air, sea, and land traffic. My frame rate varies between low teens and 30+ depending where I fly. Flights are smooth and graphics are great so I leave the frame counter off. I plan no more upgrades until after FX11 comes out.

I have and had no beef with Nick. He is a great asset to this forum. If it were someone else who was responsible for his post, I would have responded in the same manner. The issue I have with the post is that it gives the impression that everyone was having problems with Nvidia cards with DX9 and 10 and people should avoid Nvidia products.  And the only person I ever get frustrated with is myself.

Have a great holiday,

Flight Ace


 

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2.   Core i7 3770K 1155 Processor OC to 4.7 GHz
3.   ASUS Maximus V Gene Motherboard
4.   EVGA GTX580 1536MB Video Card
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7.   240 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD
8.   120 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD
9.   1 TB Backup Drive
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Reply #23 - Dec 23rd, 2007 at 12:07pm

rodericksnr   Offline
Colonel
remember when beer foamed
and water didn't?
Scotland

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Thanks from me also Nick. Without you guys we would be lost. The Simviation forum is by far the best of the best.
By the way, I found this on the Alienware site. Should I buy or wait a few months. its quiet expensive. Iv'e waited about two years to upgrade from;-
COMPAQ PRESARIO 061
AMD 64 PROCESSOR 3700 + 2.2Ghz    
150GB HARD DRIVE
3GB DDR2 MEMORY;  
Nvdia 7600GT                  
MOTHERBOARD;  MSI MS-7184 HP/COMPAQ NAME: AMETHYST M-GL6E

Mind you fsx looks & runs reasonably well with the above considering the problems others are having.

Intel® Core 2™ Extreme Processor (45nm Yorkfield) with Quad Core Technology
Overclocked to 4.0GHz - liquid cooled
3.0GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 12MB full speed level 2 Cache.
Intel® X38™ Chipset
PCI-Express™ 2.0
4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz
Up to 4GB of system memory
Standard Dual ATI® Radeon™ HD 3870 with Crossfire™ Technology
Quad DVI and dual S-Video outputs with
DirectX® 10.1 and OpenGL® 2.0 compatibility

Have a great Christmas & very peaceful & prosperous New year everyone Smiley


 

Roddy...
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Reply #24 - Dec 23rd, 2007 at 12:41pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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I used to have a life;
now I have GMax!
Hammond, IN

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Flight Ace wrote on Dec 23rd, 2007 at 12:06pm:
I have and had no beef with Nick. He is a great asset to this forum. If it were someone else who was responsible for his post, I would have responded in the same manner. The issue I have with the post is that it gives the impression that everyone was having problems with Nvidia cards with DX9 and 10 and people should avoid Nvidia products.  And the only person I ever get frustrated with is myself.


Although not explicitly stated in the first post, the list of "issues" that Nick posted apply only to those who own any 8800 series nVidia card AND are running in "DX 10 Preview" mode.

I know this by contextual inference via (a) personal experience and (b) having read all the other posts regarding this list of issues.

Since you reportedly aren't running your rig in "DX10 Preview" mode, it's hardly surprising that you've not seen any of the issues contained in that list...  Shocked
 

Bill
... Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...
...
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Reply #25 - Dec 23rd, 2007 at 1:01pm

NickN   Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317
*****
 
Fr. Bill wrote on Dec 23rd, 2007 at 12:41pm:
Flight Ace wrote on Dec 23rd, 2007 at 12:06pm:
I have and had no beef with Nick. He is a great asset to this forum. If it were someone else who was responsible for his post, I would have responded in the same manner. The issue I have with the post is that it gives the impression that everyone was having problems with Nvidia cards with DX9 and 10 and people should avoid Nvidia products.  And the only person I ever get frustrated with is myself.


Although not explicitly stated in the first post, the list of "issues" that Nick posted apply only to those who own any 8800 series nVidia card AND are running in "DX 10 Preview" mode.

I know this by contextual inference via (a) personal experience and (b) having read all the other posts regarding this list of issues.

Since you reportedly aren't running your rig in "DX10 Preview" mode, it's hardly surprising that you've not seen any of the issues contained in that list...  Shocked



Actually Bill, this does trickle into DX9 as well. The following are seen in DX9  

Flashing textures  
Black flashing spikes  
Crash when accessing the menus  
Screen WHITEOUT or Washout  
Intermittent poor performance under certain conditions  


In SP2 with new shader code


The menu crash has come around in the last month or so and really hits 7xxxx series cards more than anything else because Nvidia is changing the 8000 drivers to suit Crysis, their primary DX10 target, and in doing so they are making headaches for those on older cores, and with other titles.



There have been a few Class Action lawsuits started. One is still pending and one went away quietly, after which Nvidia addressed the timing issue in Windows Vista, but it took 3 months and the threat of a lawsuit to get them to do anything about it.  

Further, with the last one filed in August Nvidia has all of a sudden started releasing drivers every week, somtimes twice a week which is unheard of in the industry unless they are under serious pressure to correct something.  *clue*



I am in the hardware testing circuit and although I do some software testing as the request may come up, my side-gig is to look over new cards, motherboards, processors, memory, drivers, etc. I am networked into several large corps like that and from my days at Boeing so I get a good portion of the dirt as it is dug up from both the testing groups and my contacts.

I don’t post threads like this just to blow off steam, and yes the 8000 series core was developed with design flaws that can never be fixed with a BIOS or driver. Every time they release new drivers to try and keep the original 8000 core runs floating in Crysis, they have started breaking other games.  

Some people will see it and some people wont. It will depend on the motherboard chipset, the motherboard drivers being used, other devices in the system which set different chipset reg keys as they are installed, the drivers and the application (game) itself, but none the less IT IS a NVIDIA ISSUE and not FSX or the other game programming causing the problems. The issues are seen on the first 2-3 silicone runs of the G80 core more than any other. I am sure the newer slug runs are probably working better and I would assume Nvidia has corrected all this in their next release.

Also, Intel is in a flubber with Nvidia over SLi licensing. Since Nvidia refused, Intel has refused to allow the microcode use in 680i which is why next gen processors will not run on those motherboards, and, is a warning shot for future technology if Nvidia continues to refuse. That one will probably get very interesting as it unfolds because two can play at that game



At any rate, all someone has to do is ask and without the challenging dialogue. I do not like being questioned that way, as no one would.  If I saw someone else being questioned as I was, especially someone I knew was in the business or 'loop', I would have done the same thing I did in this thread and addressed that tone with a equivalent  response.


 
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Reply #26 - Dec 23rd, 2007 at 2:27pm

NickN   Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317
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NickN wrote on Dec 23rd, 2007 at 1:01pm:
Further, with the last one filed in August Nvidia has all of a sudden started releasing drivers every week, somtimes twice a week which is unheard of in the industry unless they are under serious pressure to correct something.  *clue*




Speaking of which, the 169.28 betas are already out right before xmas:

VISTA

x32 http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=1811

x64 http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=1812
 



XP

x32 http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=1810


x64 http://www.electronicpunk.com/forceware/169.28_forceware_winxp64_english.exe



Direct Nvidia FTP Download: ftp://download.nvidia.com/downloads/nZone/drivers/



I can not vouch for them as of yet because I am tied up with the holidays and testing another card


 
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Reply #27 - Dec 24th, 2007 at 2:54am

macca22au   Offline
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Melbourne, Australia

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There is a certified 169.25 now released.

Has anyone tried it?

Does it help, or is it Crysis they are trying to fix, and other games are collateral damage.
 
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Reply #28 - Dec 24th, 2007 at 10:03am

Deviant   Offline
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Cape Cod, MA

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I had less trouble with the 169.09 beta than I'm having with the 169.25.  I get more texture flashes in particular and slightly lower frame rates.  I was thinking about going back, but I'm going to try the 169.28 beta first.
 
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Reply #29 - Dec 24th, 2007 at 10:08am

Flight Ace   Offline
Colonel
I Fly Sim!
Virginia

Gender: male
Posts: 205
*****
 
NickN wrote on Dec 23rd, 2007 at 1:01pm:
Fr. Bill wrote on Dec 23rd, 2007 at 12:41pm:
Flight Ace wrote on Dec 23rd, 2007 at 12:06pm:
I have and had no beef with Nick. He is a great asset to this forum. If it were someone else who was responsible for his post, I would have responded in the same manner. The issue I have with the post is that it gives the impression that everyone was having problems with Nvidia cards with DX9 and 10 and people should avoid Nvidia products.  And the only person I ever get frustrated with is myself.


Although not explicitly stated in the first post, the list of "issues" that Nick posted apply only to those who own any 8800 series nVidia card AND are running in "DX 10 Preview" mode.

I know this by contextual inference via (a) personal experience and (b) having read all the other posts regarding this list of issues.

Since you reportedly aren't running your rig in "DX10 Preview" mode, it's hardly surprising that you've not seen any of the issues contained in that list...  Shocked



Actually Bill, this does trickle into DX9 as well. The following are seen in DX9  

Flashing textures  
Black flashing spikes  
Crash when accessing the menus  
Screen WHITEOUT or Washout  
Intermittent poor performance under certain conditions  


In SP2 with new shader code


The menu crash has come around in the last month or so and really hits 7xxxx series cards more than anything else because Nvidia is changing the 8000 drivers to suit Crysis, their primary DX10 target, and in doing so they are making headaches for those on older cores, and with other titles.



There have been a few Class Action lawsuits started. One is still pending and one went away quietly, after which Nvidia addressed the timing issue in Windows Vista, but it took 3 months and the threat of a lawsuit to get them to do anything about it.  

Further, with the last one filed in August Nvidia has all of a sudden started releasing drivers every week, somtimes twice a week which is unheard of in the industry unless they are under serious pressure to correct something.  *clue*



I am in the hardware testing circuit and although I do some software testing as the request may come up, my side-gig is to look over new cards, motherboards, processors, memory, drivers, etc. I am networked into several large corps like that and from my days at Boeing so I get a good portion of the dirt as it is dug up from both the testing groups and my contacts.

I don’t post threads like this just to blow off steam, and yes the 8000 series core was developed with design flaws that can never be fixed with a BIOS or driver. Every time they release new drivers to try and keep the original 8000 core runs floating in Crysis, they have started breaking other games.  

Some people will see it and some people wont. It will depend on the motherboard chipset, the motherboard drivers being used, other devices in the system which set different chipset reg keys as they are installed, the drivers and the application (game) itself, but none the less IT IS a NVIDIA ISSUE and not FSX or the other game programming causing the problems. The issues are seen on the first 2-3 silicone runs of the G80 core more than any other. I am sure the newer slug runs are probably working better and I would assume Nvidia has corrected all this in their next release.

Also, Intel is in a flubber with Nvidia over SLi licensing. Since Nvidia refused, Intel has refused to allow the microcode use in 680i which is why next gen processors will not run on those motherboards, and, is a warning shot for future technology if Nvidia continues to refuse. That one will probably get very interesting as it unfolds because two can play at that game



At any rate, all someone has to do is ask and without the challenging dialogue. I do not like being questioned that way, as no one would.  If I saw someone else being questioned as I was, especially someone I knew was in the business or 'loop', I would have done the same thing I did in this thread and addressed that tone with a equivalent  response.

Nick,

Thanks for this information. When I upgraded several months ago I elected to stay with XP until things settled in for Vista and DX10. My choice of an 8800 GTX, although it performs well with XP, may have been the wrong decision for running with Vista/DX10. I do hope Nvidia pulls a miracle out of the bag and get their differences ironed out with Intel. If this doesn’t happen, I may have to invest in another video card when I upgrade for FS11. As for my response to your original post, I do apologize for its tone. There are better ways to express one’s self.

Happy Holidays,

Flight Ace




 

1.   Chaser MK-1 Full Tower ATX Computer Case
2.   Core i7 3770K 1155 Processor OC to 4.7 GHz
3.   ASUS Maximus V Gene Motherboard
4.   EVGA GTX580 1536MB Video Card
5.   16 GB C8 G.SKILL Low Profile RAM
6.   Noctua NH-D14 CPU Cooler
7.   240 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD
8.   120 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD
9.   1 TB Backup Drive
10. Samsung TOC 26 inch Monitor
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