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Super Sabre WIP (Read 4353 times)

Oct 24^th, 2007 at 5:58pm

Dornep Offline
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Hello All

I haven't been on this forum in ages until a few days ago when I got the itch the start modeling aircraft for FS again. I quit modeling aircraft to model/skin for a mod team for BF2, that got old after a year or so and turned into more of a job then a hobby. So after messing around with this and that in the evenings after work for a few months, here I am. The time I spent modeling and skinning for BF2 related stuff really taught me a lot of new things about the whole process... Or at least I would like to think it did.

I would like to stick around Simv a bit longer this time and bring some nice models to the table while I'm here. There's a lot for me to learn about getting high quality aircraft into FS9/X and when I have questions I will bring them to the experts (you guys)

Anyway this is the F100D I've been working on, modeled in 3dsmax. It's still very basic with no landing gear or VC. Currrently the face count is around 4300. Crits welcome. Also let me know if I went overkill on the images.

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Reply #1 - Oct 24^th, 2007 at 7:00pm

Greg Ebnit EApilot Offline
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Looks good. Cool

Cool

Welcome back.

(AN ODE TO GMAX) OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH GMAX! How I sometimes want to hug and kiss it. And other times want to smash, berate, and delete it. Gmax how I love and loathe thee. The crashes the errors the reinstalls. Gmax you are the whomb of my aircraft design. Oh Gmax my designing creating temptress. It must be love for you have taken my heartdrive. By Greg Ebnit

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Reply #2 - Oct 24^th, 2007 at 7:05pm

Travis Offline
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Nice work, there! I can't see any poly flubs or warped areas, which is really nice considering the intricacies of the aircraft. I especially like the canopy work! Your wireframe model also shows that the poly count is way low, which is a blessing. My models always seem to get really poly-heavy, even though I always try to keep them down a bit.

Is that 3DS Max?

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Reply #3 - Oct 24^th, 2007 at 11:16pm

Dornep Offline
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Quote:

Is that 3DS Max?

Yes, it's 3dsmax 7.

The BF2 engine doesn't handle 60,000 Poly models very well so that was one thing I struggled with in BF2. After a while I got used to being limited to 3000-8000 faces for my models, and learned to squeeze as much detail as I could out of those polys.

Since my first post I've cut the gear bay's and I'm working on the doors. The rear landing gear on this plane is very awkward, not so much the gear itself but the 3 piece gear doors. Once I've worked my way down to the wheels I will update this thread with some new renders.

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Reply #4 - Oct 25^th, 2007 at 2:21pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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That is indeed some very clean and simple mesh.

I know that some feel differently, but might I urge you to take the time to UVW Map and create your basic texture sheets as you model? Believe me, it will save you a TON of time in the long run, and provide some needed "kick" to keep your juices flowing.

Aside from which, all too often viewing your project with some basic "clothes" on can reveal some small problem areas that are best fixed at this stage of development, rather than when done.

Yet another benefit is that if the same part is duplicated (such as a tire/wheel), if you UVW Map the original, then when Cloned and Moved into position... it's already done!

Many times, this process will point out areas where I can use texturing and shading rather than geometry to achieve my end goals.

Finally, it makes WIPs one heck of a lot more interesting! Cool

Cool

Bill
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Reply #5 - Oct 25^th, 2007 at 4:09pm

Tweek Ex Member

Looks lovely! You could be onto a real winner.

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Reply #6 - Oct 25^th, 2007 at 5:58pm

Dornep Offline
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Thanks for the comments guys.

I've browsed Simv for F100's and I've found two, but neither seem to be very high quality (no disrespect to the designers). Do you guys know of any other FSX/FS9 F100's of decent quality? Freeware or Payware, I would like to check them out if you guys know of any good ones.

@ n4gix
I understand what your saying, but I think it would really throw me out of whack if I started unwrapping the model before it's finished. I constantly tweak and adjust different parts, which I think are finished one day... But find they are totally wrong the next, as I come across better photos and diagrams.

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Reply #7 - Nov 1^st, 2007 at 7:10pm

Dornep Offline
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Double post but I wanted to post an update on the Hun.

I've finished cutting the gear bay's and gear doors, hopefully I won't have to change them. The gear is 80-90% complete, I want to add a few more details to really make them look like the real thing. They are complex and I'm sure it's going to be a PITA to get them animated properly. I'm not sure how the gear retraction and extension goes since I've never found any videos showing the sequence. I also corrected a few errors with the vertical stab and the windscreen. I've redone the leading edge slats so they will look like the real deal when they extend.

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Reply #8 - Nov 1^st, 2007 at 11:14pm

Ashar Offline
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Wow...This looks really nice! Keep up the good work Shocked

Shocked

Shocked

Wink

Blabbing Away at SimV Since June 8, 2004

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Reply #9 - Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 12:40am

Fr. Bill Offline
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Dornep wrote on Oct 25^th, 2007 at 5:58pm:

@ n4gix
I understand what your saying, but I think it would really throw me out of whack if I started unwrapping the model before it's finished. I constantly tweak and adjust different parts, which I think are finished one day... But find they are totally wrong the next, as I come across better photos and diagrams.

I'm not speaking of "polished UVW Maps and textures." I'm talking about spending a few minutes to create some very basic textures and UVW Mesh Maps. Enough to provide something just a bit more interesting than gray putty. Wink

Wink

Bill

Bill
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Reply #10 - Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 10:40am

Travis Offline
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Fr. Bill wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 12:40am:

Dornep wrote on Oct 25^th, 2007 at 5:58pm:

@ n4gix
I understand what your saying, but I think it would really throw me out of whack if I started unwrapping the model before it's finished. I constantly tweak and adjust different parts, which I think are finished one day... But find they are totally wrong the next, as I come across better photos and diagrams.

I'm not speaking of "polished UVW Maps and textures." I'm talking about spending a few minutes to create some very basic textures and UVW Mesh Maps. Enough to provide something just a bit more interesting than gray putty. Wink

Wink

Bill

Why bother? It seems as though you would only end up with UVWs that are not conforming to the actual model once its done, so why do you have them? It just looks like you'd be wasting that time spent getting those UVWs mapped and such . . .

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Reply #11 - Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 10:44am

Katahu Offline
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I think he is referring to base textures where you would have the outline of the model's surface with a few lines here and there. Am I right?

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Reply #12 - Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 12:27pm

Dornep Offline
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Fr. Bill wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 12:40am:

I'm not speaking of "polished UVW Maps and textures." I'm talking about spending a few minutes to create some very basic textures and UVW Mesh Maps. Enough to provide something just a bit more interesting than gray putty. Wink

Wink

If I'm going to take the time to unwrap even one part I want it to be "polished" and complete when it's done. The grey putty may not be all that interesting but I've found it gives the best render's when used with raytracer lighting. I myself think it looks much better them some of the rainbow colored Gmax previews I've seen.

I see your point, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

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Reply #13 - Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 1:22pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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Quote:

I think he is referring to base textures where you would have the outline of the model's surface with a few lines here and there. Am I right?

First of all, I offered this as a suggestion, not a criticism. I just thought I'd share a professional tip, learned the hard way from authoring many, many models over the years.

Yes, that is precisely what I was suggesting. More often than not, a quick UWV Map and some base texture will reveal rogue polys, co-linear or co-located vertices, and abnormal normals when the mesh is exported and rendered in situ (meaning loaded in the sim!).

I've lost count of the number of models that've been sent to me by modelers who've suddenly discovered that their hard work in Max/GMax looks badly when exported and loaded in the sim, or worse... looks terrific but suffers from horrible frame rates!

Perhaps though, a careful read of Adrian* Wood's four-part series on "Performance Art" will better illustrate the critical nature of carefully crafted textures as applied to mesh objects, and the need for greater synthesis between the two processes, particularly as the necessity of optimizing draw calls has become the single most important metric for performance in the sim.

It is clear to me (as well as many of my professional colleagues) that the days of textures almost being an afterthought are over. I've now found that I need to actually pre-plan my textures as part of the initial development process, since a lot of the mesh modeling decisions will be affected by the texture sheet decisions... Wink

Wink

http://blogs.technet.com/torgo3000/archive/2007/06/01/performance-art.aspx

*Note: Adrian Woods is the Lead Art Developer for ACES

Bill
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Reply #14 - Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 4:55pm

Dornep Offline
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I didn't take offense to your post (ok maybe just a lil bit).. I probably overreacted, it's just that unwrapping the mesh is the most dreaded point in the process for me. Thats actually what burned me out on BF2 modeling.. Unwrapping countless poorly done models with thousands of broken vertices. It seemed like I was spending more time fixing the model then I was unwrapping them.

Fr. Bill wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 1:22pm:

I've now found that I need to actually pre-plan my textures as part of the initial development process, since a lot of the mesh modeling decisions will be affected by the texture sheet decisions... Wink

Wink

I agree with you 100% on that one. It seems like I always hit a brick wall when I start unwrapping my models. I do get them finished and looking decent eventually, but the tweaking involved to get them right takes ages for me. I will take that tip to heart and keep it in mind when I start my next project. Wink

Wink

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Reply #15 - Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 2:34pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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Dornep wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 4:55pm:

I didn't take offense to your post (ok maybe just a lil bit).. I probably overreacted, it's just that unwrapping the mesh is the most dreaded point in the process for me. Thats actually what burned me out on BF2 modeling.. Unwrapping countless poorly done models with thousands of broken vertices. It seemed like I was spending more time fixing the model then I was unwrapping them.

Well, that's fair enough. After all, you don't know me and I just "showed up one day..."

Although I've actually been a "registered member" here since 2003, I've been more of an occasional reader/lurker over the years. I'm very, very active elsewhere, where my "roots are" so to speak.

Since UVW Mapping induces "dread" as you say, might I suggest that you explore the techique I've described using LithUnwrap to generate 100% accurate "mesh maps" to be used as the base layer of your texture sheets? It's a very quick process (once the two components are installed), and produces nearly instant gratification in the form of visual confirmation and faster, smoother workflow.

http://www.aerodynamika.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1126473781

The mini-tutorial describes how to UWV Map a single object to span two texture sheets, but the truly important bits are the links to both LithUnwrap v1.3 and the MD3/Quake exporter, along with some illustrations showing LithUnwrap in action. Grin

Grin

Bill
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Reply #16 - Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 6:20pm

Katahu Offline
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There is an actual topic posted over at the M6 Forums [Orbiter Sim Forums] where a very skilled modeler used a trick in 3Ds Max that used the rendered state of the model's surface as the base texture. This is better explained by reading his thread over at the M6 Forums. Unfortunately, the screenshots posted on that thread [which gave a clear process on how it's done] have been removed for some reason. I'm gonna ask him if he can put together a quick tutorial of some sorts.

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Reply #17 - Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 9:34pm

Dornep Offline
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Quote:

There is an actual topic posted over at the M6 Forums Orbiter Sim Forums where a very skilled modeler used a trick in 3Ds Max that used the rendered state of the model's surface as the base texture.

Thats kind of how I did it when I first started unwrapping.. I would take screen shots of the the part I was unwrapping in the viewport in wireframe mode. I would do this for the wings, fuselage, tail, etc, and arrange them all on a 1024 texture usually.

Now I use the textporter plugin. I unwrap the part/parts and then tell textporter what size texture I would like to use, and then it exports a bmp the size of my choice. This is kind of thrown together, but this is the result textporter gives.

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Reply #18 - Nov 12^th, 2007 at 4:25pm

Stubbedtoe18 Offline
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Man that does look good

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Reply #19 - Nov 12^th, 2007 at 8:27pm

Dornep Offline
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It's good to see that I'm not the only one still interested. Wink

Wink

I've been working on the landing gear and animations over the weekend, and I didn't have to work today thanks to the veterans...God bless em. So I spent just about all day working on the F100, I didn't accomplish very much. Mostly touch ups, corrections, and some what knot stuff that needed to be added.

Still a lot of work to be done, but here it is coming in at a whopping 9204 faces.

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Reply #20 - Nov 12^th, 2007 at 9:31pm

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Man that looks friggen' amazing! You should do a high-poly like that and a low-poly model as well so we can fly it with some FPS. Wow, did you see there was gonna be a VC as well? Think of the screenshots we can make with a plane that looks that smooth!

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Reply #21 - Nov 12^th, 2007 at 11:13pm

Dornep Offline
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Yes there will be a VC, that's my next major hurdle. I would like to make the VC as realistic as possible with all the knobs, switches, and 3d gauges I can fit in it. The modeling of the VC should be no problem because I have some really nice pics of the F100F and D variants. Getting the 3d gauges working properly is were I'm going to need LOTS of help since I have never completed a VC. Embarrassed

Embarrassed

« Last Edit: Nov 13^th, 2007 at 4:47pm by Dornep »

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Reply #22 - Nov 13^th, 2007 at 1:27pm

Tweek Ex Member

Looking lovely, just how a model should be! Detailed, yet low poly. Good job.

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Reply #23 - Nov 14^th, 2007 at 6:30am

Layne. Offline
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WOW! You have really out done your self ay! Wink

Wink

It looks very detailed and i can't wait to fly it! Will ti be FS9 or FSX or both???

I beleive lots of people ar einterested but not posting Undecided

Undecided

Keep on working on it mate! Don't give up

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Reply #24 - Nov 14^th, 2007 at 7:51pm

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Holy C***!! That is amazing for so few polys! Can't wait to fly this one

&&http://www.bungie.net/card/halo3sm/baldrnr.ashx&&

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Reply #25 - Nov 18^th, 2007 at 7:12am

Dornep Offline
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Well I've hit a brick wall with makemdl... I've exported the model once a week or so ago and after removing the scale animation from the animated parts it worked like a charm.

However now, nothing will get rid of the dreaded "ERROR: Scaling null has a translation, ignoring it". I've tried resetting scale/transform, detaching the entire part, and a few other things. I'm almost ready to upload it to the adopt a design page and chalk it up as a lesson learned and start over... I'm getting antsy to start either an Su-22 or F-105 anyway.

If I do decide to start something new would anyone like to try their hand at getting it to export? I'm using 3dsmax with the Pandasoft .X file exporter so that may be a problem. If I can get it to export I will upload some pics of the interior, or at least what I have of it so far.

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Reply #26 - Dec 2^nd, 2007 at 12:03pm

Dornep Offline
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Ok I've figured out the problem with the export process.

I'm not sure if it's the model itself or the Panda exporter, but the model will not export with keyframed animations. If I turn off animations in the Panda exporter everything flows right through makemdl without a hitch. However if I turn them on, it seems to think that every single part in the mesh has a scale animation.

I'm not sure if it's because I animated the model, and then scaled it down to the correct size or what... But it seems that I'm going to have to export to gmax in 3ds format and then animate the model.

It looks kind of funky in FS9, because I mirrored several objects instead of using the mirror modifier. Also some smoothing issues but I will get them sorted out soon.

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Reply #27 - Dec 2^nd, 2007 at 4:28pm

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Looking great! Fantastic progress.

This is one of my favourite mil jet classics & one I often thought about modelling. Great to see it being done so well.

Keep going through the fences .... it's what get's you there!

Look forward to more!

Think Global. It's the world we live in.

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Reply #28 - Dec 4^th, 2007 at 9:52pm

Dornep Offline
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Thanks for the encouragement, it's helped me through many problems.

I believe I can see a light at the end of the tunnel now.... I'm still not sure that it isn't a freight train coming to chew me up into little pieces, but it is a light..

I've finally found a solution (I think) to my exporting problems with Panda and MakeMDL. I read on another forum that the version of Panda I was using has a bug which has something to do with animations. I downloaded an earlier version of the Panda .X exporter and my model sailed right through MakeMDL but with a few errors. I also checked the model in FS9 but the landing gear doesn't appear to be animated or it's not in the mesh.

This is what I got in MakeMDL if anyone can make anything of it. The text in red is what I'm worried about.

Running model

Start! (C:\3dsmax7\meshes\F-100D-SuperSabre.X)
Loading X C:\3dsmax7\meshes\F-100D-SuperSabre.X...
Processing...

ERROR: Scaling null has a translation, ignoring it

(Part ) Found colinear vertices within triangle
( 0.008697, 0.000387,-0.000080)
(-0.008683, 0.000387,-0.000080)
( 0.000000, 0.000387,-0.000080).
(Part ) Found colocated vertices within triangle
( 0.000560, 0.227834,-1.245811)
( 0.000560, 0.227834,-1.245811)
( 0.044283, 0.227833,-0.564335).
(Part ) Found colinear vertices within triangle
( 0.000560, 0.227834,-1.245811)
( 0.000560, 0.227834,-1.245811)
( 0.044283, 0.227833,-0.564335).
(Part ) Found colocated vertices within triangle
(-0.000506, 2.026031,-2.208277)
( 0.000478, 2.026030,-2.208277)
(-0.024362, 2.026030,-1.757382).
(Part ) Found colocated vertices within triangle
(-0.000506, 2.026031,-2.208277)
(-0.000606, 2.825726,-2.540973)
( 0.000478, 2.026030,-2.208277).
Model units are 1024.00 units/meter
Sorting by Material...
Optimize Parts...
Welding...
Generate BGL...

Assertion failed: file .\xfileprocess.cpp, line 1432 (!m_cScale || m_cScale==2)

Done!
Generate crash tree 1 (1256 bytes)
Assembling: C:\3dsmax7\meshes\F-100D-SuperSabre.azm
Done!

EDIT*******************************************************
I exported only the nose gear and it shows up in FS9 only there is no animation. Stock animations still work but no key framed animation... I read on Netwings that a guy had a similar problem as me, he said he turned on debug mode in MakeMDL which gave him animations in FS9....???? Any clue as to how to go about doing that?

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Reply #29 - Dec 4^th, 2007 at 10:33pm

Dr.bob7 Offline
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she shur is perdy,

great design looks really nice is ot gonna be for FSx or FS2004?

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Reply #30 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 6:25am

Dornep Offline
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It's going to be for both FS9 and FSX eventually, but the FS9 version will be released first.

I also have some GREAT news! I got the keyframed animations working, so now the panda exporter and makemdl are working perfectly. I can now finish the model in Max, as I wasn't looking forward to using Gmax, thats also a relief.

As soon as I get the animation redone I will have some screen shots for you guys.

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Reply #31 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 3:11pm

Fr. Bill Offline
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Dornep wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2007 at 12:03pm:

I'm not sure if it's because I animated the model, and then scaled it down to the correct size or what...

That is indeed where the Scaling error crept in.

For the sake of preventing future aggravation with new projects, here's a Tip:

If you simply must (re)scale a model in either Max or GMax,
1. Select All parts, then add an X-Form modifier to the stack.
2. Select the X-Form modifier's "Gizmo"
3. Use the Uniform Scale to (re)scale the "Gizmo" to the final size needed.

After (re)scaling, you may then Collapse All to E-Mesh or E-Poly as desired and continue working.

Bill
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Reply #32 - Dec 6^th, 2007 at 6:46pm

Dornep Offline
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Thanks for the tip Bill, I will remember that one.

I'm actually excited about this plane, it's so nice to be able to make a change in Max and not have to worry about it hanging up in the export process anymore.

Now that I've gotten that part figured out it's time to get down to business. Expect to see some major progress by the end of this weekend.

Some shots in FS9..

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Reply #33 - Dec 7^th, 2007 at 4:35pm

MrJake2002 Offline
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Excellent!!! Shocked

Shocked

Looking forward to its release.

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Reply #34 - Dec 9^th, 2007 at 1:58am

Dornep Offline
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A little update on the unwrap process.. It's almost 2:00AM so thats all for tonight...err morning. Cheesy

Cheesy

PS. Is it better performance wise to have two large textures or many smaller ones?

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Reply #35 - Dec 9^th, 2007 at 2:49am

Travis Offline
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For performance, you want very few texture files. Two is excellent, since FS loads one texture at a time. More textures = more loading time when switching views.

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Reply #36 - Dec 9^th, 2007 at 7:02am

Alphajet_Enthusiast Offline
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Looking awesome!
Looks like you got many of the hardest parts
behind you. When I took a shot at modelling
it was the texturing that I couldn't get my
head around... You're doing a great job and
it looks amazing.
Considering the quality of you work, I'm sure
you'll have a LOT of requests once you're
done with this beauty...

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Reply #37 - Dec 9^th, 2007 at 12:39pm

Dornep Offline
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Quote:

For performance, you want very few texture files. Two is excellent, since FS loads one texture at a time. More textures = more loading time when switching views.

Thats good news. I have the fuselage on one texture and the wings on another texture. Would two 2048x2048 textures be overkill?

Some more progress on the fuselage.

« Last Edit: Dec 9^th, 2007 at 5:04pm by Dornep »

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Reply #38 - Dec 9^th, 2007 at 11:17pm

Isak922 Offline
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Consider yourself badgered!!!
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Amazing!

I've always hoped for an excellent F-100!

Always liked the bird!

Can't wait for her, and keep up the great work!

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Reply #39 - Dec 10^th, 2007 at 10:02am

Jayhawk Jake Ex Member

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WOWZERS! That looks AMAZING! Can't wait to fly it!

AMD Athalon X6 1090T 3.2Ghz::EVGA nVidia GeForce GTX 560Ti 2GB GDDR5::8GB RAM
*The opinions expressed above are my own and are in no way representative of fact or opinion of any other person, corporation, or company.*

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Reply #40 - Dec 10^th, 2007 at 4:39pm

Sakura Offline
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Where's that drooling smiley?

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Reply #41 - Dec 11^th, 2007 at 12:30pm

Dornep Offline
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I'm glad you guys like it, I hope to keep the quality as high as I can. My knowledge of XML is non-existent at the moment, but I have been doing my home work over at FFDS.. So if I can get my head around it maybe I can bring a nice bird to the community.

I have been plugging away at the little things for the last two days (I took a weeks vacation from work Grin

Grin

). I've unwrapped and animated the afterburner petals, unwrapped all the gear doors, windscreen, droptanks, and pylons. I still have to add the fuel probe and drag chute, but those can be done last minute. Next up is the landing gear...

A few updated renders

« Last Edit: Dec 11^th, 2007 at 1:53pm by Dornep »

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Reply #42 - Dec 11^th, 2007 at 4:23pm

MrJake2002 Offline
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Looks excellent! Smiley

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Reply #43 - Dec 11^th, 2007 at 6:10pm

Tweek Ex Member

Dornep wrote on Dec 9^th, 2007 at 12:39pm:

Thats good news. I have the fuselage on one texture and the wings on another texture. Would two 2048x2048 textures be overkill?

It might be for the in game bitmaps, but there's no harm in painting at that size and then downsizing the bitmaps afterwards. That way you can cram as much detail as you like into it, and effectively get more detail out of the smaller (ideally 1024) bitmaps.

Looking very nice, by the way!

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Reply #44 - Dec 13^th, 2007 at 1:18pm

EGNX Offline
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Leicester, England

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Wow! looking great!

Read my sig and contact me if you want some help on the textures!

&&

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Reply #45 - Dec 27^th, 2007 at 11:07pm

mossdog Offline
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Posts: 68

woah. woaH. woAH. wOAH. WOAH! - that was me scrolling through the screens on this thread. Keep up the good work Mr Dornep

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Reply #46 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 12:48pm

Dornep Offline
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That guy
Florida

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I'm happy to say that EGNX has kindly offered to create textures for the F-100D and hopefully I can unleash him on the texture maps soon, so that we will have something to really show that we are serious about this bird.

To make life easier on my new found partner in crime, I've laid down a few layers on the texture maps, like rivets, lines, and some markings. That way he wont be flying blind when laying down the paint. It's been awhile since an update so I figured I would show you guys whats been done so far.

I'm sure I'm missing some panel lines and several thousand rivets, but give it time. Wink

Wink

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Reply #47 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 3:13pm

captmjk Offline
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She is looking beautiful, Keep it up!

I am not a Super Sabre fan, but this one looks like it will be too good to pass up!

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Reply #48 - Jan 4^th, 2008 at 3:26pm

MrJake2002 Offline
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Porthleven, Cornwall, UK

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Wow! Looking great!

http://www.facebook.com/eaaagle

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