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Is it a good thing that? (Read 2016 times)
Oct 4th, 2007 at 12:51am

Mazza   Offline
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3 things:

#1: going full throttle down a long taxiway then putting flaps down air brakes on and reverses on?
#2: when you have landed and still on the runway to push the stick forward to help with braking?
#3: full on diving down flaps full air brakes on and no throttle?

#1 and 3 are for sim
#2 are for both

 

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Reply #1 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 1:20am

Mobius   Offline
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#1 - Baaaaaaad.
#2 - Baaaaaaad.
#3 - That's what you call an emergency descent.  Fun to practice, but make sure you've got plenty of altitude to do it. Cheesy
 

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Reply #2 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 1:29am

a1   Offline
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Whoa those are really bad to do in real life. Shocked
 

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Reply #3 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 2:27am

Mazza   Offline
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well with the first one i don't go that fast only 40knots.
 

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Reply #4 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 2:29am

Mazza   Offline
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but what i mean with #2 is that you got landing gear at the front so you would want to create drag(it's kinda a second flap system) Cheesy
 

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Reply #5 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 3:25am
An-225   Ex Member

 
Mazza wrote on Oct 4th, 2007 at 2:29am:
but what i mean with #2 is that you got landing gear at the front so you would want to create drag(it's kinda a second flap system) Cheesy


= WAY WAY WAY too much pressure on the nose wheel = gear lock problems/bogey collapse/burst tire(s). Also, there may be the possibility of rupturing the braking/PSI system. For the first, you need to learn some patience. It might be hard, you are 11 (I am 13, however, I was quite patient back then - when I went for my first flight, I didn't pressure the instructor to roar down the taxiway to the active runway at full throttle). Even 40 knots is VERY bad - you should be staying under about 30 - 25 so as to avoid traffic and structures.

For your third comment...NO WAY should you be diving with full flaps, air brakes, maybe at 50% (really, you shouldn't be pitching down to the point that you need airbrakes to SERIOUSLY slow your descent).

All in all, I recommend you read through aircraft checklists, and get a feel for its limits, because, no offense, but if you were an airline captain, and I had to fly on your plane, I would get off immediately. Wink
 
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Reply #6 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 4:52am

Mazza   Offline
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I was just wondering what you guys think. Well i am a very good pilot and i userly stay about 5-10 knots when taxing... but i put myself near the runway Roll Eyes.

and you do have a point with the front gear, so when i go flying in some 10years i will slow down on the GROUND when landing with the brakes airbrakes etc.

and i don't mean to land on the front(weeeeeeeeeeeeee  Grin Roll Eyes) when all the landing gear is down and when you are at 60- knots
 

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Reply #7 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 7:09am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Those are vague questions that are aircraft/situation dependent... I can think of situations where there are "yes" answers to all three questions.

At the very least, you should specify the plane in question.
 
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Reply #8 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 8:58am

DaveSims   Offline
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Usually on landing you hold the stick back for aerodynamic braking, and to put the weight on the main gear where the brakes are.  There are no brakes on the nose gear.
 
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Reply #9 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 4:26pm

Isak922   Offline
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Mazza wrote on Oct 4th, 2007 at 12:51am:
3 things:

#1: going full throttle down a long taxiway then putting flaps down air brakes on and reverses on?
#2: when you have landed and still on the runway to push the stick forward to help with braking?
#3: full on diving down flaps full air brakes on and no throttle?

#1 and 3 are for sim
#2 are for both



1. On a Taxi-way, this is VERY bad. Unless you're a Military pilot, and have to do a very high speed taxi for a scramble, then you should really never exceed 20kts in something like a 737, or larger planes. General Aviation should go even slower on taxi-ways.

2. Very bad. As mentioned before, this can cause serious damage to the nose-wheel. It's actually smarter to raise the nose a bit to help slow down, then place it lightly back down on the runway. This is called Aerodynamic braking, and all small military jets use this to help slow down, no matter how big or small the runway is.

3. This is called a "Tactical Landing" within the Military. C-130's and C-123's do it all the time, and I'm sure even larger aircraft such as a C-17 and C-5 could do it as well. However, in a commercial jet, you do not want to do this, no matter what. It will cause extreme discomfort to your passengers, as well as possible damage to the plane. Pulling up out of a steep dive will cause quite some G-Force, which can damage parts of the plane, especially the wings!
 

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Reply #10 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 3:41am
An-225   Ex Member

 
Isak922 wrote on Oct 4th, 2007 at 4:26pm:
Mazza wrote on Oct 4th, 2007 at 12:51am:
3 things:

#1: going full throttle down a long taxiway then putting flaps down air brakes on and reverses on?
#2: when you have landed and still on the runway to push the stick forward to help with braking?
#3: full on diving down flaps full air brakes on and no throttle?

#1 and 3 are for sim
#2 are for both



1. On a Taxi-way, this is VERY bad. Unless you're a Military pilot, and have to do a very high speed taxi for a scramble, then you should really never exceed 20kts in something like a 737, or larger planes. General Aviation should go even slower on taxi-ways.

2. Very bad. As mentioned before, this can cause serious damage to the nose-wheel. It's actually smarter to raise the nose a bit to help slow down, then place it lightly back down on the runway. This is called Aerodynamic braking, and all small military jets use this to help slow down, no matter how big or small the runway is.

3. This is called a "Tactical Landing" within the Military. C-130's and C-123's do it all the time, and I'm sure even larger aircraft such as a C-17 and C-5 could do it as well. However, in a commercial jet, you do not want to do this, no matter what. It will cause extreme discomfort to your passengers, as well as possible damage to the plane. Pulling up out of a steep dive will cause quite some G-Force, which can damage parts of the plane, especially the wings!


You are absolutely correct on all of these points! Although, you would have to slow down on the taxiway at some point, even in a fighter (I have had lots of incidents on LOMAC, in which multiple Tupolevs would be carpet bombing our airport, and I would rush to the active in excess of thirty knots, only to have the plane tip over when I try to turn onto it).

And also, Flyguy, you really need to reread some of our posts here. We read yours, and all gave answers for it, we are not talking about LANDING on the nosewheel. We are talking about your bad idea of putting pressure on it.
 
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Reply #11 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 10:58pm

Rocket_Bird   Offline
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Mazza wrote on Oct 4th, 2007 at 12:51am:
3 things:

#1: going full throttle down a long taxiway then putting flaps down air brakes on and reverses on?
#2: when you have landed and still on the runway to push the stick forward to help with braking?
#3: full on diving down flaps full air brakes on and no throttle?

#1 and 3 are for sim
#2 are for both



Sim

#1: Sounds like a great idea!  Cheesy
#2: Absolutely!  Its call the wheel barrow braking technique!
#3: You will have a lot of fun with that.

Real

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Reply #12 - Oct 6th, 2007 at 4:43am

Mazza   Offline
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Rocket_Bird wrote on Oct 5th, 2007 at 10:58pm:
Mazza wrote on Oct 4th, 2007 at 12:51am:
3 things:

#1: going full throttle down a long taxiway then putting flaps down air brakes on and reverses on?
#2: when you have landed and still on the runway to push the stick forward to help with braking?
#3: full on diving down flaps full air brakes on and no throttle?

#1 and 3 are for sim
#2 are for both



Sim

#1: Sounds like a great idea!  Cheesy
#2: Absolutely!  Its call the wheel barrow braking technique!
#3: You will have a lot of fun with that.

Real

1-3

Non are things you want to do in real life if you enjoy living Smiley



ROFL  Grin
 

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Reply #13 - Oct 6th, 2007 at 10:07am

spitfire boy   Offline
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Mazza wrote on Oct 4th, 2007 at 12:51am:
full on diving down flaps full air brakes on and no throttle?


I'm gonna go and try that in a 777... Grin Grin
 

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Reply #14 - Oct 6th, 2007 at 11:39am

Iwannabeapilot   Offline
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Mazza wrote on Oct 4th, 2007 at 12:51am:
#2: when you have landed and still on the runway to push the stick forward to help with braking?


I believe some military jets use this technique. Eurofighter Typhoon does this automatically on touchdown and I've watched the SAAB Gripen do it on videos. But of course with airliners it's a different story.  Tongue
 

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Reply #15 - Oct 7th, 2007 at 6:15am

Mazza   Offline
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okay guys here's something for the books...... when i talk about flying i mainly am referring to small acrobatic props and military jets and medium props if i'm talking about anything i'll metion what it is Smiley
 

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Reply #16 - Oct 15th, 2007 at 5:36pm

Ravang   Ex Member

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For #1 I've seen some crop dusters that can land in very small places fly all the way down the runway and then land right before turning off onto the taxiway, their motto is "Time is Money", or is it "Lookout for that tree!" Undecided Tongue
 
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Reply #17 - Oct 17th, 2007 at 2:40am

beaky   Offline
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Mazza wrote on Oct 7th, 2007 at 6:15am:
okay guys here's something for the books...... when i talk about flying i mainly am referring to small acrobatic props and military jets and medium props if i'm talking about anything i'll metion what it is Smiley



In lighter nosewheel aircraft (some fighters like the Grippen are "small" but are heavy), you really should not try to force the nose down on the rollout.
The reason has less to do with aerodynamics than with leverage.
An airplane with a nosewheel has a CG that is ahead of the main wheels. So if you force the nose down, that mass will start to pivot forward with the nosewheel as a fulcrum instead of the mains. Even if the nosewheel stops completely,  that mass wants to keep coming forward. Right? It's a problem with a lighter plane because there is not enough weight to keep the tail down, but enough to start moving up around that pivot point.
  So now the airplane is not keeping itself straight on the rollout as any good "trike" should when the fixed mains have touched down aligned with the runway... it's mostly on that one wheel, a wheel which can pivot.
  This can be a  bad thing.
Smaller trikes can easily "wheelbarrow", which often means a trip off the side of the runway, because the ailerons and rudder are useless at that speed, and the plane will not steer well with all of its weight on the nosewheel.  Or even most of its weight.
Assuming the nosewheel doesn't collapse, often taking the engine mount with it... it's usually not made to take that kind of force.

Bottom line here is: the nosewheel is not the desired fulcrum. Grin

  As you roll out, you want to use "up" elevator to use as much of that weight aft of the mains as you can to keep the mains glued to the runway, balanced with the weight forward of the mains, and use the bottom of the wings for drag until the nosewheel comes down (or is put down- some trikes need nosewheel steering earlier than others).

Or so it seems to me... Grin


 

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Reply #18 - Oct 17th, 2007 at 7:29am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
okay guys here's something for the books...... when i talk about flying i mainly am referring to small acrobatic props and military jets and medium props if i'm talking about anything i'll metion what it is 


Like I posted earlier..  A lot depends on the airplane and the situation/conditions. Off the to of my head, I can't think of an acrobatic prop that even HAS a nose wheel (Aerobats don't count).. and by "medium prop", do you mean a twin ?  Military jets have so little in common with propeller planes of any kind, it's weird to see them grouped together in a discussion like this.

Quote:
#2: when you have landed and still on the runway to push the stick forward to help with braking?


OK.. Nose-wheel brakes are almost non-existent, and as Rotty pointed out; the static CG is already forward of the main-wheels (else it'd be a tail-dragger, tail wheel or no)... so any pushing forward of the yoke/stick would reduce braking effectiveness.  NOW... if you've already landed on a wet runway; are going slowly enough that the rudder has become un-effective, and need to turn off the runway abruptly..... a combination of braking and forward yoke/stick might be needed to keep the nose-wheel from "plowing". That will put you in territory dangerously close to a wing-strike, and you'd be better off just rolling to the next taxiway, or if need be, back-taxi after slowing to a safer speed.
 
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