Simviation Forum - McLaren verdict.

Sep 13^th, 2007 at 1:30pm

eno Offline
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$100m fine ......... and no constructors points ....+ next years car to be independently scrutinised.

That's the verdict in the McLaren spy case.

They are expected to appeal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm

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Reply #1 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 1:54pm

expat Offline
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eno wrote on Sep 13^th, 2007 at 1:30pm:

$100m fine ......... and no constructors points ....+ next years car to be independently scrutinised.

That's the verdict in the McLaren spy case.

They are expected to appeal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm

So last week there was insufficient evidence of wrong doing and this week a $100 million fine. Still, should please Craig Grin

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Reply #2 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 2:53pm

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Firstly I do not think McLaren have done anything wrong.

So, having now seen the news, there is so much that does not add up.
The team have lost all points but not the drivers, who whether they knew or not have competed in a potentially "illegal" car (illegal as to stolen technology). Why have the drivers escaped. Any victory will be pointless and hollow if they win in a car that has been designed with Ferrari technology or to counter Ferrari technology. Simple answer to that. A new fresh face in F1 that has taken all by storm, who has attracted sponsors, fans and viewers. There is no point in the drivers retaining their points if the team and the drivers are part of the team are docked theirs, but then we would not have an drivers championship this year.

$100 million fine. In the history of F1 the largest fine was about $5 million. How do they work out a nice round figure of $100 million? Why three years ago when Ferrari employees where caught selling Ferrari technology to Toyota and the FIA did nothing? This is a political move by FAI and Mosley to destroy a large thorn in the FIA's side, namely Ron Dennis, the man that almost organized a break away from F1- After all it is well know what Max Mosely thinks of McLaren and Ron Dennis. A sad day for F1.

Still I imagine that all the washing is not yet on the line in this story.
Another question, is this the end of McLaren F1. $100 million fine, no constructors money this year or next year, potential loss of sponsors, or if not that, a lot less money to spend on development. 1000 + employees to pay. That sort of money would send most companies down the pan.

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Reply #3 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 3:23pm

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Am I happy, yes and no.
Ex-pat, firstly. the irony is, although Max doesn't like Ron, Bernie the mole does, and as you said, a certain young talent has brought him a ton of money this year, and that alone is why Bernie will have fought tooth and nail to ensure the drivers got off scot free (thats why i'm not happy)

I am happy that they've been punished, will it stand? who knows but if it does, I think it covers it pretty well, Ron Dennis is a nasty piece of work and his latest statements about now taking Renault down with them if they are punished, prooved to me he did something wrong. I honestly dont care if RD does his crying act the whole weekend, fact is he lied when he said only those two guys had the information, and the new info came out, he got caught with the lie.

What happens next though?
Mclaren may not be on the grid next year? I doubt that, I see RD retiring, Whitmarsh taking his place, and Mercedes buying the team outright. I dont see either Alonso or Hamilton now driving for the team next season, FA has been wanting out and now he has his perfect get out of jail free card. Hamilton needs to be in a team that can guarentee him a stable spot.

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Reply #4 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 4:36pm

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Craig. wrote on Sep 13^th, 2007 at 3:23pm:

Am I happy, yes and no.
Ex-pat, firstly. the irony is, although Max doesn't like Ron, Bernie the mole does, and as you said, a certain young talent has brought him a ton of money this year, and that alone is why Bernie will have fought tooth and nail to ensure the drivers got off scot free (thats why i'm not happy)

I am happy that they've been punished, will it stand? who knows but if it does, I think it covers it pretty well, Ron Dennis is a nasty piece of work and his latest statements about now taking Renault down with them if they are punished, prooved to me he did something wrong. I honestly dont care if RD does his crying act the whole weekend, fact is he lied when he said only those two guys had the information, and the new info came out, he got caught with the lie.

What happens next though?
Mclaren may not be on the grid next year? I doubt that, I see RD retiring, Whitmarsh taking his place, and Mercedes buying the team outright. I dont see either Alonso or Hamilton now driving for the team next season, FA has been wanting out and now he has his perfect get out of jail free card. Hamilton needs to be in a team that can guarentee him a stable spot.

I think you are right about most things, but if Mercedes stay with McLaren, I think Hamilton will stay too. He is not daft and regardless of the whole saga McLarens car is the better "tool" for him at this time and suits him. Kimi is an example of how hard it is to jump from one car to another today. Michael Schumacher after all never had that problem as he was part of the design of the car.

As for RD knowing, we have to agree to disagree. He may be a lot of things to a lot of people, but a cheat, no I don't think so, he has been at this too long. This comes down to two disgruntled employees who thought that they could make a little on the side because they where not happy with what they had. One was a McLaren employee, McLaren have to have some responsibility, but a $100 million responsibility very OTT. I think that this verdict was pay back time to some extent. At the end of the day, two greedy p#ssed of people have just crashed F1 2007. The constructor championship and the drivers championship are both now totally meaningless. It is a shame, because if Hamilton wins in his rookie year, it will be tainted regardless of what is said.
As for the Renault remarks, F1 is tighter than Portuguese police lips during an investigation. Did he really say that or did the press as usual hear what they wanted to hear whilst looking for a good angle to add.

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Reply #5 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 4:51pm

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Hi mate,
It was confirmed yesterday by the FIA that Mclaren have approached them about renault and the same thing as the ferrari case. They were told that it would be welcomed in a seperate hearing, any info Mclaren have regarding the situation. The taking them down comment came from a website quoting ron.

I actually didn't say Ron cheated. I said he lied.
I dont for one second think that anything major was used by anyone regarding the documents. My biggest problem with the situation is RD claiming that it was only Coughlan and Stepny who knew. He testified to this at the first hearing. Since then, new evidence reportedly from Alonso/ De-la rossa emails suggests a lot more people knew about this than first reported. I have no doubt RD was one of them, and as such he lied to the head honchos and now has been proven so. This also encompasses the drivers, and how they got away with the "Immunity clause" I have no idea (I am guessing this is where Bernie mole stepped in) And as such they also had access to the information, which the team claimed they didn't have at the first hearing. So my way of understanding this is, the drivers claim to respect the sport and its integrity, but instead of immediatly coming forward and reporting this, they try to hide it, and as such make a mockery of it.

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Reply #6 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 5:31pm

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Craig. wrote on Sep 13^th, 2007 at 4:51pm:

Hi mate,
It was confirmed yesterday by the FIA that Mclaren have approached them about renault and the same thing as the ferrari case. They were told that it would be welcomed in a seperate hearing, any info Mclaren have regarding the situation. The taking them down comment came from a website quoting ron.

I actually didn't say Ron cheated. I said he lied.
I dont for one second think that anything major was used by anyone regarding the documents. My biggest problem with the situation is RD claiming that it was only Coughlan and Stepny who knew. He testified to this at the first hearing. Since then, new evidence reportedly from Alonso/ De-la rossa emails suggests a lot more people knew about this than first reported. I have no doubt RD was one of them, and as such helied to the head honchos and now has been proven so. This also encompasses the drivers, and how they got away with the "Immunity clause" Ihave no idea (I am guessing this is where Bernie mole stepped in) And as such they also had access to the information, which the team claimed they didn't have at the first hearing. So my way of understanding this is, the drivers claim to respect the sport and its integrity, but instead of immediatly coming forward and reporting this, they try to hide it, and as such make a mockery of it.

I stand corrected on the Renault part, I have since my last post read a bit more on the various websites. As for the drivers, I would love to have been a fly on Bernie's lapel. At the end of the day, he (I say loosely) owns F1 and has a vested interest that his product remains bright and shiny. I be there where some very interesting conversations taking place.
Also I know you said "lied" and I said "cheated", but with a sport like F1 and what it involves, the line becomes very blurred as we have seem many times over the last few years.
McLaren are fools to themselves. RD had been in this long enough to know the penalty, I think that they have been caught short by the punishment that they got. If RD had fired the guy who had the doc's right away and called JT and said come and pick your folder up, nothing would have happened. Much the same way that Toyota delt with the same thing.

As for this weekend. What do you think, will they be feeling the pressure or be pumped up?

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Reply #7 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 5:37pm

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I agree on the calling JT as soon as possible and I think this is another reason for the severe penalty.
This weekend, it could be a tale of two teams. The mechanics and the drivers. The drivers I'm sure will be pumped up and try to stamp their authority on the championship and put this behind them.
The mechanics on the other hand, they do this for the constructors trophy. I know a lot of the general public dont care about it or understand it, but to the guys in the garage it means more than the drivers title. It means they can say we are the best we built the car that won. And now getting kicked out, I honestly can see a lot of the guys being very downbeat and rather upset about it. Will it effect performance? Maybe, but something tells me FA and LH need to be very nice to these guys if they want the wheels being put on quickly.

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Reply #8 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 6:09pm

CharlottesDad Ex Member

Regardless of who wins the championship they will be associated with the car they won in.
I can remember EVERY car EVERY champion won in, purely by association. Senna/Prost McLaren, Mansell Williams, Schumi Bennetton/Ferrari etc.
The only penalty to McLaren is financial and over time they'll recoup that tenfold if FA or LH wins this year, which is likely.

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Reply #9 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 6:15pm

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So in your opinion, apart from a slightly tarnished repuatation they wont suffer any real reprocussions?

P.s. dont forget Prost also won the title with Williams. Wink

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Reply #10 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 6:31pm

CharlottesDad Ex Member

What I'm saying is that history is history.. the whole car/driver package is what I remember not just the driver. When somebody mentions Damon Hill I don't visualise a greying George Harrison lookalike, I visualise his Rothmans Williams, likewise Senna and the Marlboro McLaren. Shallow maybe, but that's how I see it.
Of course McLaren will be tainted, even if they don't win the drivers championship.. but if they do whoever wins it will be remembered in that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes because that's what they won in. Simple.

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Reply #11 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 6:33pm

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Fair point. I wasn't being combatitive honest, just trying to understand your point clearly. Wink

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Reply #12 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 2:14am

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Quote:

When somebody mentions Damon Hill I don't visualise a greying George Harrison lookalike, I visualise his Rothmans Williams, likewise Senna and the Marlboro McLaren.

Very good point. Also next year, when the Constructors Championship is up and running and if McLaren are in what would be first position, they will be listed as such on every website and newspaper as probably two listings. What is the official word and a corrected listing for what would/should have been. TV of course is Bernie's department. We will have to see just how far the presenters are able to go.

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Reply #13 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 6:39am

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well if they are docked their points and not overturned at appeal, newspaper listings or not, the Mclaren team will be getting to know spykers team quite well down the bottom of the pitlane. (or whatever they will be called next year) If one of their drivers wins the title and leaves, they will also have the fun of carrying numbers in the 20's on the car. That'll be rather humiliating for the team.

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Reply #14 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 7:57am

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Ferrari won't be happy until they are the world championship. They'd be happy racing against 20 Spykers...

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Reply #15 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 10:01am

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The FIA has published accounts of "systematic" contact between McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan and Ferrari's Nigel Stepney - evidence that led the governing body to severly penalise the Woking-based team.

In a 14-page document issued at the Belgian Grand Prix, the FIA details how the World Motor Sport Council reached its verdict at its hearing on Thursday.

As was expected, the evidence revolves around an email exchange between McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa and world champion Fernando Alonso, plus logs of calls and SMS messages between Coughlan and Stepney.

In the emails, extracts of which have been published, de la Rosa talks about information coming from Stepney.

On March 21 de la Rosa wrote an email to Coughlan stating: "Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car's Weight Distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in advance, Pedro.

"P.S. I will be in the simulator tomorrow."

Coughlan replied to that email with a text message with the details that were required, although in the end those settings were not tried out.

On March 25 de la Rosa then sent an email to Alonso setting out Ferrari's weight distribution to two decimal places on each of Ferrari's cars for the Australian Grand Prix.

Alonso then replied under a section headed Ferrari: "Its weight distribution surprises me; I don't know either if it's 100 percent reliable, but at least it draws attention."

De la Rosa then replied: "All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now. He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that."

The evidence then details emails from de la Rosa discussing a flexible wing, aero balance, tyre gas, Ferrari's braking system and the team's stopping strategy.

Furthermore, the FIA examined reports from the Italian police of call logs between Coughlan and Stepney.

The evidence said: "In total, at least 288 SMS messages and 35 telephone calls appear to have passed between Coughlan and Stepney between 11 March 2007 and 3 July 2007."

The World Motor Sport Council found that:

"- Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated and was receiving information in a systematic manner over a period of months;

"- the information has been disseminated, at least to some degree (e.g. to Mr. De la Rosa and Mr. Alonso), within the McLaren team;

"- the information being disseminated within the McLaren team included not only highly sensitive technical information but also secret information regarding Ferrari's sporting strategy;

"- Mr de la Rosa, in the performance of his functions at McLaren, requested and received secret Ferrari information from a source which he knew to be illegitimate and expressly stated that the purpose of his request was to run tests in the simulator;

"- the secret information in question was shared with Mr. Alonso;

"- there was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confident information in its own testing. If this was not in fact carried into effect it was only because there were technical reasons not to do so;

"- Coughlan's role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties."

Okay, so I now change my view of them just trying to cover up a lie to them actually having and in the case of the test team/ race strategists using the information. After that info, the penalty is more than fair, and both FA and LH can really thank their lucky stars they wern't kicked out.

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Reply #16 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 1:05pm

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I can't see how what the team does should effect the drivers Craig. They're just as innocent here. However Ron Dennis should be nailed up by his nuts. This isn't the first time he has been involved in these sort of dodgy dealings...

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Reply #17 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 3:34pm

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not to be rude mark but, did you read the FIA findings fully?
It clearly states both Pedro de-la rosa and Fernando Alonso exchanged information not only concerning things of a technical nature to do with the F2007 which they wanted to try out on their simulator, but also things such as team tactics like the first stop for Kimi in Australia. With that information, Alonso could use it to fill his car up in qualifying to a level that would give him an advantage.
Now I dont think Lewis had a thign to do with this. I would be happy for him to suffer no punishment what so ever. His involvement is nothing but an innocent bystander in this. But Alonso should join Dennis on the wall with his nuts nailed.

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Reply #18 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 3:43pm

CharlottesDad Ex Member

Didn't Stepney and Coughlan approach Honda with a view to future employment?

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Reply #19 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 4:02pm

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they did, but were turned away as rumor has it they offered the ferrari information. It was then that Nick Fry contacted Jean todt to let him know what they were doing.

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Reply #20 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 5:41pm

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Well, you see, all of this could've been eliminated if F1 had long ago adopted the NASCAR model of "Competitive Parity", aka "Lets all drive the same crap". Then there would have been no technology worth stealing. Grin

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Reply #21 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 5:51pm

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LOL true mate.

I dont like the idea though of restrictions on teams running the same cars, I think part of the fun is seeing what each team brings to the title race. I dont buy into the theory that the car is what matters more than the driver. You put a bad driver in a good car your still going to get inconsistant and poor results. The whole idea that overtaking in F1 is impossible is also ridiculous, it's not difficult because of the wings and crap, its because in general the drivers are that much closer in terms of ability, especially up near the front. Yes the additional wings dont help, but I dont think that we'll see much differant racing when they are gone.

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Reply #22 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 5:57pm

CharlottesDad Ex Member

Big fat slick tyres, no traction control and manual gearboxes are the way forward (or backwards Tongue

) for F1.. more emphasis on mechanical grip than aero grip. Then we may see a bit more overtaking... The bigger the balls, the faster the car. Cool

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Reply #23 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 6:11pm

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2009, 2008, never going to happen. Are the responses for your suggestions. I agree on the first two, but from a purely safety point of view, I would not shed a tear if the idea of manual gearboxes was never thought of again. The paddle shifts are much safer, what I would like to see banned are the systems that stop a driver downshifting too far and too early. They are now so advanced that it automatically knows which corner a driver is about to come to, and it knows the lowest gear needed, so it stops you going to far down. Those should be banned, at least a driver would have to then think about the gear shifts.

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Reply #24 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 3:29am

eno Offline
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I don't think I've ever had a thread run so long Grin

I think Alonso should be taking as much of a hit as the team given the rather obvious evidence against him. I'd say removal of his points for this season and a ban for next season along with a fine wouldn't be over the top.

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Reply #25 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 4:00am

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Quote:

Big fat slick tyres, no traction control and manual gearboxes are the way forward (or backwards ) for F1.. more emphasis on mechanical grip than aero grip.

Let's keep some wing on them. I mean when they were going airborn from cresting the hills, well, that was just a bit much. But I must admit my heart speeds up a bit when I see footage from the 70's and earlier.
Quote:

The bigger the balls, the faster the car.

Add talent and abilty to that and we'll have some real racing.
Quote:

The paddle shifts are much safer, what I would like to see banned are the systems that stop a driver downshifting too far and too early. They are now so advanced that it automatically knows which corner a driver is about to come to, and it knows the lowest gear needed, so it stops you going to far down. Those should be banned, at least a driver would have to then think about the gear shifts.

Agreed. Some selections will, at the touch of a button, automatically drop the exact number of gears for the corner being negotiated and at the proper revs. A bit much, eh?
Quote:

I think Alonso should be taking as much of a hit as the team given the rather obvious evidence against him. I'd say removal of his points for this season and a ban for next season along with a fine wouldn't be over the top.

Seems he should've received something, given the evidence. Frankly, I always wished he eould have stayed with Renault. At least Flavio has to more fun to be around.

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Reply #26 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 4:34am

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So the question is, what was the Bernie input to keep Alonso on the grid. It would appear that my use of the word cheating was not so wrong Craig. Alonso should have been disqualified and removed fom the grid, as it has been shown that he was directly receiving and using the Ferrari information.
Any word or rumours as to the reaction from Mercedes and Mercedes plans for next year?

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Reply #27 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 4:35am

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eno wrote on Sep 15^th, 2007 at 3:29am:

I don't think I've ever had a thread run so long Grin

Just mention a badger. It'd be huge.

Maybe it's time the sport opened up. Lets make corporate espionage legal...

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Reply #28 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 5:01am

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I liked the idea of rotating drivers.
Add that to your idea charlie, just think of the cars by the end of the season Shocked

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Reply #29 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 7:02am

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expat wrote on Sep 15^th, 2007 at 4:34am:

So the question is, what was the Bernie input to keep Alonso on the grid. It would appear that my use of the word cheating was not so wrong Craig. Alonso should have been disqualified and removed fom the grid, as it has been shown that he was directly receiving and using the Ferrari information.
Any word or rumours as to the reaction from Mercedes and Mercedes plans for next year?

Matt

Intersting article in today's Times, basically suggesting Alonso threatened to be a "whistle blower" if McLaren didn't make him the definate no. 1. Due to the nature of the email leaks, and very indiscreet conversation, it may well be curtains at McLaren for both Alonso and P de la R...

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Reply #30 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 7:03am

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As my Brother in law has just pointed out ...... any information passed over at the beginning of the season is invalid within a month as they develop the cars so fast, to gain any advantage there would have to be a constant flow throughout the season.

I would hazard a guess that this sort of information "exchange" is endemic in F1 the difference being this time, someone got caught.

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Reply #31 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 8:15am

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eno wrote on Sep 15^th, 2007 at 7:03am:

As my Brother in law has just pointed out ...... any information passed over at the beginning of the season is invalid within a month as they develop the cars so fast, to gain any advantage there would have to be a constant flow throughout the season.

I would hazard a guess that this sort of information "exchange" is endemic in F1 the difference being this time, someone got caught.

I'd have to agree - how many F1 employees change employment per year, for example Geoff Willis, now at Red Bull, who was key to Honda's previous success. Surely they'll have a lot of information and expertise formerly unique to their previous team stored in their grey matter...

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Reply #32 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 2:34pm

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Charlie wrote on Sep 15^th, 2007 at 8:15am:

eno wrote on Sep 15^th, 2007 at 7:03am:

As my Brother in law has just pointed out ...... any information passed over at the beginning of the season is invalid within a month as they develop the cars so fast, to gain any advantage there would have to be a constant flow throughout the season.

I would hazard a guess that this sort of information "exchange" is endemic in F1 the difference being this time, someone got caught.

I'd have to agree - how many F1 employees change employment per year, for example Geoff Willis, now at Red Bull, who was key to Honda's previous success. Surely they'll have a lot of information and expertise formerly unique to their previous team stored in their grey matter...

A good mates brother used to work for Toyota and then after a season jumped to what was Jaguar. He said that he had to sign a chit about trade secrets, and then gave me one of those "what do you think looks". You change teams and are going to say sorry guys I can not tell you. I do not think so.

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Reply #33 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 6:00pm

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The most exciting season in years and the FIA has to go and ruin it. Angry

Unless they remove McLaren from the season and all their points (drivers + constructors), then I have to agree with , I think it Charolettes Dad , who said in years to come we will still remember the McLaren as the car it is, a Ferrari beater and a world champion (fingers crossed)

Just like Shumacher in '97 to Villenueve. Did Shumacher come 2nd that season or last ? You get my point.

Ron did nothing wrong other than not running to the FIA the moment he found out about his employees actions, which is a hard call , but in hindsight McLaren have not been proactive to prevent this decison being made.

Yes I agree and I smell an Anti-Ron campaign here. Angry

Q: How can they take points from the record books and not Poles, Fastest Laps and Wins ? Huh

Oh, well
Long live McLaren ! Wink

Paul

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Reply #34 - Sep 15^th, 2007 at 6:22pm

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Posts: 18590

Give me a break on this anti ron stuff.
Mclaren have clearly broken the rules. Ron dennis on so many occasions has proven himself to be one of the most untrustworthy men in the pitlane, but unlike a team like Ferrari, who I will admit bend the rules and in some cases break them but they dont exactly hide the fact. Ron then covers it up by going on some emotional speech where he starts crying and complaining everyone is against him. Max Moselys comments today were by far the most telling yet of how things went down. Unfortunatly they are also the proof needed to show how inept the FIA are at consistant and logical punishments. This whole case as outlined in the evidence presented, then published by the FIA, wasn't just a couple of emails and texts saying oh wanna see some pictures of our latest wing. This was indepth information being passed around that Mclaren had absolutly no right to. Everything from brake biases to car balances and even race/ pitstop strategys for the first race or two. These are bits of information that were discussed by not only the two gentlemen mentioned from the begining but also its top driver and test driver. Ron claims he didn't know? So what, its become quite clear that influential and important members of the team did. As the boss of the team Ron takes responsibility for those individuals underneath him especially the drivers.
The FIA haven't ruined anything, if anything they have at least allowed the most important part to the fans carry one, when truthfully they had every right to kick them out of the championship. Alonso especially.

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Reply #35 - Sep 16^th, 2007 at 5:14am

Nelson Offline
Colonel
I Fly Sim!

Posts: 42

ok your right...

..but we're still going to win the championship ! Grin

Point taken, I am totally ashamed to be a McLaren fan.... Grin

What and this stuff doesn;t happen all the time ?

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Reply #36 - Sep 16^th, 2007 at 2:48pm

Craig. Offline
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Birmingham

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Nelson, i'll agree on your point about the points and position thing but not the wins and results being changed. Yes they should have taken away schumi's 97 entire season in respect to his keeping his position in the championship. was rather stupid.

As a side note, Ron dennis has hinted that Mclaren wont appeal, however Jean todt has also pointed out, the reason for that is because the penalties from that appeal could end up even worse for mclaren, and they wouldn't be allowed to make a case in the court as it would have to be left for the lawyers alone. I think Ron knows after Max's comments this weekend its safer to just take this one on the chin and not risk your drivers getting kicked out too.

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Reply #37 - Sep 17^th, 2007 at 2:56am

eno Offline
Colonel
Why you shouldn't light
your farts!!
Derbyshire UK

Posts: 7802

Craig .... it's rather obvious you don't like Ron Dennis Grin

However I would hazard a guess that Ferrari, Renault, Spyker, BMW, etc are all just as guilty, the difference being nothing is in writing and their team members don't attempt to bribe them when things aren't going their way.
Ron should have been commended for taking the action he did when Alonso attempted to hold him to ransom. Alonso should have had the book thrown at him and in theory could have faced criminal charges for attempted blackmail. Yes banning Alonso would have ruined a close season but it would have sent a clearer message to drivers and teams alike. Max Mosely said in the ITV interview that this incident would be remembered because the FIA didn't do enough to punish McLaren.. NO it will be remembered for the fact that they didn't do enough to punish the drivers/team members that were directly involved. What incentive have team bosses got to report wrong doing by their team members, none, because the team will take the hit not the individuals involved. Hamilton had it right in his interview ... although he didn't directly say it .... Alonso was showing no team loyalty as he didn't even bother to turn up for the hearing.
Alonso is turning out to be another Schui (without the driving skill).... unfortunately he went to the wrong team for his Prima Donna attitude to be taken seriously.

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Reply #38 - Sep 17^th, 2007 at 9:28am

Craig. Offline
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Birmingham

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I'll disagree about the schumi comment there for one reason. Schumi made it his priority to have a close relationship with his mechanics and the team as a whole. He would buy them gifts, take them to dinner and throw parties for them of his own free doing. They were at the end so loyal to him that he could have said jump off a cliff and they would have done so.
Otherwise yes they are very much alike in the sense that, both would do anything it takes to win, Senna prost and to a lesser extent mansell were all the same. You have to be ruthless to win a title. Just look how lewis has dropped off from FA now he's no longer getting Alonso's setup info. Given a few years experience LH will be just as good as FA in all areas, but right now Lewis is too much of the nice guy to win. Damon Hill was the same, it wasn't until he started to really get stuck in and doing things for himself instead of the old stiff upper lip act that he won a title.

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