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Help a newbie with aircraft modelling... (Read 912 times)
Jul 23rd, 2007 at 10:24am

spitfire boy   Offline
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...pretty please?

I have started using GMax, and I've come up with a basic model that I'd like to export to FS (I have FS9) as a sort of test. I'm going to be using the flight dynamics of another aircraft, and no textures for the moment.

I have heard that exporting models from GMax to FS involves a program called Makemdl, and a series of other downloads and procedures that have succeeded in completely befuddling me.

Please could someone talk me through the process, including links to software I'll need to get - as far as I'm aware I have none of the supporting files or software - and please no jargon, as mentioned I'm a newbie to this.

Thanks in advance - any help would be hugely appreciated.

P.S. the model in question is;
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I didn't say I was any good. Roll Eyes Grin
 

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Reply #1 - Jul 24th, 2007 at 3:27am

Travis   Offline
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Well, if it would help, I have a setup for Gmax that makes it possible to export to FS9.  If you would like the files, I can email them to you (2.5Mb).  Just PM me with your email and I'll send it to you.  It includes MakeMDL, Middleman (very usefull!) and MDL Commander (another VERY usefull tool).

Middleman can be found here and MDLCommander can be found here.  These are both EXTREMELY usefull tools for Gmax, as they allow you to oversee all the functions of MakeMDL.
 

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Reply #2 - Jul 24th, 2007 at 5:37am

microlight   Offline
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Spit,

Looking good!

F.A.B.

Wink
 

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Reply #3 - Jul 24th, 2007 at 7:04am

spitfire boy   Offline
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Quote:
Well, if it would help, I have a setup for Gmax that makes it possible to export to FS9.  If you would like the files, I can email them to you (2.5Mb).  Just PM me with your email and I'll send it to you.  It includes MakeMDL, Middleman (very usefull!) and MDL Commander (another VERY usefull tool).

Middleman can be found here and MDLCommander can be found here.  These are both EXTREMELY usefull tools for Gmax, as they allow you to oversee all the functions of MakeMDL.


No worries, I managed to work it out.

Onto the next problem... Roll Eyes

When I try to export this particular model to test, it comes up with this message in the '.log' file, and refuses to export the aircraft;
"Found colocated vertices within triangle"
What does this mean and what can I do to solve it?

P.S. I tried exporting a simple cube to FS as well and this problem didn't come up.
 

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Reply #4 - Jul 24th, 2007 at 8:13pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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"colocated vertices" means that you have one or more vertex points "on top of each other" in the same polygon. You need to take careful note of which part(s) it is complaining about and then find and WELD the colocated vertices to get rid of them... Wink
 

Bill
... Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...
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Reply #5 - Jul 25th, 2007 at 6:35am

spitfire boy   Offline
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Thanks for that.

I'll get there eventually, but for now I'm having yet more problems... Roll Eyes

Three things; first of all, when I try to get the newly-created gmax model to fly in FS9, only part of the rear of the model shows up. I have tried several times to rectify this, but nothing seems to be working. Anything to recommend that I might have missed?

Second; whenever I try to export a model, a message pops up telling me that the model isn't saved in meters... even if I have changed the units setting to meters just before exporting.

Third; this may be linked to my second problem; the model has a tendency to show up absolutely gigantic in FS; no matter how small I resize the model in gmax beforehand.

Any help would, again, be massively appreciated.
 

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Reply #6 - Jul 25th, 2007 at 7:49am

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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spitfire boy wrote on Jul 25th, 2007 at 6:35am:
Thanks for that.

I'll get there eventually, but for now I'm having yet more problems... Roll Eyes

Three things; first of all, when I try to get the newly-created gmax model to fly in FS9, only part of the rear of the model shows up. I have tried several times to rectify this, but nothing seems to be working. Anything to recommend that I might have missed?

Second; whenever I try to export a model, a message pops up telling me that the model isn't saved in meters... even if I have changed the units setting to meters just before exporting.

Third; this may be linked to my second problem; the model has a tendency to show up absolutely gigantic in FS; no matter how small I resize the model in gmax beforehand.

Any help would, again, be massively appreciated.


Youngling (in modelling terms, of course, you'll know youself if it applies to other aspects of yourself)...

Make sure that your "System Unit Scale"  in gmax are set to 1 unit = 1 meter.

You will find this under Customize->Preferences->[Tab:General]  "System Unit Scale"


 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #7 - Jul 25th, 2007 at 5:45pm

spitfire boy   Offline
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Felix/FFDS wrote on Jul 25th, 2007 at 7:49am:
spitfire boy wrote on Jul 25th, 2007 at 6:35am:
Thanks for that.

I'll get there eventually, but for now I'm having yet more problems... Roll Eyes

Three things; first of all, when I try to get the newly-created gmax model to fly in FS9, only part of the rear of the model shows up. I have tried several times to rectify this, but nothing seems to be working. Anything to recommend that I might have missed?

Second; whenever I try to export a model, a message pops up telling me that the model isn't saved in meters... even if I have changed the units setting to meters just before exporting.

Third; this may be linked to my second problem; the model has a tendency to show up absolutely gigantic in FS; no matter how small I resize the model in gmax beforehand.

Any help would, again, be massively appreciated.


Youngling (in modelling terms, of course, you'll know youself if it applies to other aspects of yourself)...

Make sure that your "System Unit Scale"  in gmax are set to 1 unit = 1 meter.

You will find this under Customize->Preferences->[Tab:General]  "System Unit Scale"




Thanks for that - that's solved one of my three problems (possibly 2, haven't checked yet). However, problem #1 is still...well...a problem. Only part of the model bothers to show up in the simulator.

Here's a screenshot to show what I mean;
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Compare this to the shot I put in the original post. Huh

I'm really confused as to why this is happening. I've tried grouping all the shapes together, I've tried attaching them to each other, I've tried pretty much everything I can think of. Please help!
 

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Reply #8 - Jul 26th, 2007 at 8:45am

Greg Ebnit EApilot   Offline
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Hey.
Model size problem=
I model in US units you can model in either US or Metric. Then Gmax will convert them. What you do is start Gmax go directly to Customize tab at top then Units set up. Choose either Metric or US. Making sure to either pick Meters or Feet with decimal inches. Press OK.
Next reopen the Customize tab and go to Preferences. There under System Units Scale choose Meters making sure to check Automatic Units Conversion  and that it is set to 1.0.
While still on Preferences you may want to Crank up your scene undo I like to have 100 just in case I want to back way up. Its on the same page as the System units scale.
Now click Viewports. In order to have your textures display well go to Display Drivers and click Configure driver. Click 512 and check Match BMP as close as possible. Also have triangle strips checked now push OK. While on the Viewports page you can also choose some preferences to help Gmax run better on your machine such as backface cull wich just means you can see through the back of the poly. Less for your machine to have to generate.
Now open your model file. You should get a window that pops up and says something like the Scale of the model is different then the sytem scale. Choose adopt system scale. There you go now click on the little tape measure on the top left next to the movie camera and use the mouse to check the demensions of the model. If everything is ok  then procede but if things are out of wack set up a jig. Either with the tape or a simple box. Select all parts and Uniform scale them down to the size you desire.
A few other tips= Dont group your parts link them together only group at the end when you have your Exterior model and Interior model ready. Link upwards link parts you want to adopt your main parts annimation. Such as c_gear this is the parent with the annimation. Link all other parts for the c_gear to your main animated part. Depending on the Parent it may have to be linked to the nearest non annimated part like a wing or engine. This helps keep from getting scaled annimation errors on export.
SAVE OFTEN! Gmax can be a little scitso especialy when your new and apt to do things the program doesnt like.
Welding parts=
Select vertices in the main tab select all verts in the part go to weld options start at lowest setting and weld till your model part deforms that should take care of collocation.
Jigs are important=
I like to use boxes that are unconverted to Polys or meshes because you can change the size of them in the control box. This comes in handy when measuring for your Flightsim docs. I also like to have one box at the Flightsim Ref point. This is at 0.0Y 0.0X 0.0Z this just helps to orient you in the GMax and Sim world and is important to flight dynamics.
OK outta time gotta go watch my niece and nephew. Im planning on making some Videos for tips and tricks soon so watch for them here at the Forums.
Greg Cool
EDIT!= If you dont have annimations yet you should not have to link anything together to get them to show up in the sim generaly only need to link animated parts.
 

(AN ODE TO GMAX)     OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH GMAX! How I sometimes want to hug and kiss it. And other times want to smash, berate, and delete it. Gmax how I love and loathe thee. The crashes the errors the reinstalls. Gmax you are the whomb of my aircraft design. Oh Gmax my designing creating temptress. It must be love for you have taken my heartdrive. By Greg Ebnit  ...
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Reply #9 - Jul 26th, 2007 at 3:56pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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Everyting you wrote was "good advice" except the bit about "Group"ing...

While there's no danger in using the "Group" function in Max/GMax, there IS A PROBLEM that can occur if you ever need to "UnGroup" parts for editing...

You will quite likely introduce an error called "OBED Scaling" that is (a) annoying, (b) fatal, and (c) nearly impossible to eliminate...

So, in short, NEVER USE THE "GROUP" BUTTON FOR ANYTHING, EVER!  Grin
 

Bill
... Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...
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Reply #10 - Jul 26th, 2007 at 4:04pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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Fr. Bill wrote on Jul 26th, 2007 at 3:56pm:
Everyting you wrote was "good advice" except the bit about "Group"ing...

While there's no danger in using the "Group" function in Max/GMax, there IS A PROBLEM that can occur if you ever need to "UnGroup" parts for editing...

You will quite likely introduce an error called "OBED Scaling" that is (a) annoying, (b) fatal, and (c) nearly impossible to eliminate...

So, in short, NEVER USE THE "GROUP" BUTTON FOR ANYTHING, EVER!  Grin


This error is caused by a rounding error in gMax when you group objects - which is why you generally don't get the problem. When you look at the scale that appears it will be something like 1.00000000001 - not enough to have any effect on anything, but its mere existence is enough to cause MakeMDL to fail.

If you should somehow run into the dread "OBED Scaling" error, one possible solution is as follows:

Select your group and open out a new track view. Go to the animation keys and you'll probably find there's one in there for scaling, delete it and the problem will go away (maybe).

 

Bill
... Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...
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Reply #11 - Jul 26th, 2007 at 5:05pm

Greg Ebnit EApilot   Offline
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Ahh yes the OBED error. Believe Ive had some experience with that one. I only use the group function when exporting. But thats what I was told to do. That may be the problem with the Makemdl error Im getting that wont allow me to export my current project through FS9 Makemdl. The Interior model exports fine but my Exterior is giving me fits.
Would you agree that where you get OBED error is from grouping parts and then scaling them to a different size? Then ungrouping. Seems thats what I did.
So you should always just select all the parts as individuals you wish to scale/clone. In a loose selected group and not by using the group tab.
For instance when you are selecting parts to clone for the opposite side of your model. Which is one of the things I didnt have time to mention this morning. When cloning from one side to the other to select the parts you want then click Edit then Clone then Modifiers tab Parametric Deformers Mirror for such opperations as cloning from one side to the other or to save retexturing duplicate parts. (This avoids a problem of transparent parts and inside out textures in the sim due to a Gmax problem with using the Shift Key clone)  Then simply collapse the stack of modifiers by Right clicking on the modifier and choosing Collapse All from the pop up. Also Ive found it is best to make sure that parts you are cloning are unlinked before you clone them to avoid any errors. Collapsing is also important after you texture a part using the UVW modifier and subsequently after texture adjustments with the Unrap UVW. Which is covered in the SDK scenery tutorial from Microsoft.
OHHH yes Ive had all the errors and probably some yet to come. LOL Grin
Which reminds me of the dreaded Scaled animation error. This one has nearly driven me to fits of insanity. Scaled Animation can be caused by several errors in linking to static parts and not linking static parts. Ive also found that some times the transform becomes to out of wack with the world and the only way to fix it is by either creating a new part for the animation or if you have similar part to clone a new one. Gmax I think just decides not to like some parts when you try to animate them. Roll Eyes Wink
Thanks for the keeping the facts straight N4. Cool
The forums here at Simv/FSdevelopers.com/Freeflightdesignshop for XML help and hours of grinding in Gmax not to mention all the tutorials and other resources have made me the Gmax modeler I am today. For better or for worse. LOL LMAO Wink
I can almost press the alt key and mouse rotate with complete confidence.Grin
Which reminds me DO NOT PUSH THE START MENU KEY WHILE SELECTING AND MOVING PARTS THIS CAN CAUSE A REAL WRECK IN YOUR MODEL. Man I hate when I do that. LOL  Shocked
 

(AN ODE TO GMAX)     OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH GMAX! How I sometimes want to hug and kiss it. And other times want to smash, berate, and delete it. Gmax how I love and loathe thee. The crashes the errors the reinstalls. Gmax you are the whomb of my aircraft design. Oh Gmax my designing creating temptress. It must be love for you have taken my heartdrive. By Greg Ebnit  ...
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Reply #12 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 8:41am

spitfire boy   Offline
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I have only one thing to say; THANKS FOR THE HELP EVERYBODY!!! Cheesy

I am in the middle now of exporting a model to test in FS, after following your advice; will report back as to whether it works or not. Smiley
 

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Reply #13 - Aug 7th, 2007 at 8:48pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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Greg Ebnit EApilot wrote on Jul 26th, 2007 at 5:05pm:
Ahh yes the OBED error. Believe Ive had some experience with that one. I only use the group function when exporting. But thats what I was told to do. That may be the problem with the Makemdl error Im getting that wont allow me to export my current project through FS9 Makemdl. The Interior model exports fine but my Exterior is giving me fits.
Would you agree that where you get OBED error is from grouping parts and then scaling them to a different size? Then ungrouping. Seems thats what I did.
So you should always just select all the parts as individuals you wish to scale/clone. In a loose selected group and not by using the group tab.


Just pretend the "Group" button isn't there. Do not - repeat NOT - ever use it again...

For both FS9 and FSX, the correct, SDK approved technique is to use two top level hierarchy nodes: "exterior" and "interior" to keep your model organized. These are "keywords" that're recognized by MakeMDL.exe automatically.

IOW:

exterior
....all the parts for the exterior model are Linked here
interior
....all the parts for the interior model are Linked here

----------------------

When wishing to scale any object, always scale one of the sub-object levels, such as Vertex, Faces, Polygon, or Element.

I you really, really, REALLY want to scale at the object level, then for heaven's sake add an X-Form modifier to the stack beforehand. Wink

BTW, a quick way to remove "Scale Errors" from a large group of objects (such as the one you had me look at), select all the parts, add an X-Form modifier to the stack, then click on Hierarchy/Scale/Reset.
 

Bill
... Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling Eaglesoft Development Group Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600-4GB DDR2 Crucial PC6400-800 GB SATA-ATI Radeon HD2400 Pro 256MB DX10 NOTE: Unless explicitly stated in the post, everything written by my hand is MY opinion. I do NOT speak for any company, real or imagined...
...
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