Just wondering if anyone knows whether I can count VFR cross country time flown under the hood with with my instructor as a safety pilot as PIC cross country time.  Still working on that 50 hrs of cross country time...

Thanks.

Charlie wrote on Jul 21^st, 2007 at 5:58am:

That would be nice, but I need it all, the wallet is getting a little thin...

I can't complain though.

I'm a CFI (innactive) and I can't even answer that off the top of my head.  Instinctually, I'll say no. That 50 hours of x-xountry PIC is a requirement with reason behind it.  Your instrument time (dual or with safety pilot), is a requirement with reason. Flying under the hood, concentrating on instruments, is NOT the same experience as flying places as a PIC, anymore that navigating VFR by VOR, as PIC would be applicable instrument experience.

These are the short-cuts that you DO NOT want to get into the habbit of making, it's what gets people killed.. along with this:

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That's deadly and illegal advice...

If you ever get to the point of being able to safely use an instrument rating, 50 hours here and 50 hours there are a nothing.


Edit.. I've got a call into my mentor pending.. a 20,000+ hour airplane guru.. I'll ask him..

Edit Edit:....  He just returned my call. The answer is yes. If the hood time has a destination airport (at which you make at least a touch-n-go landing) more than 50nm away, you can count that time towards your X-country as PIC time, too. But trust me, by the time you're ready to take your instrument check-ride, you'll have garnered plenty of x-country time (hopefully)(for safety's sake).

Thanks for the responses guys, that's what I was looking for.  It would only be a couple of hours or so, and I've already done enough extra time to account for much it.  I should be able to get the rest of the time needed soon, but with Oshkosh going on, it's absolutely nuts around here.  Last night I got VFR flight following from Madison on my way back in, and I got a traffic advisory that there was traffic at my 11 o'clock at 2,100, 5,000, and 11,000 ft.  All the CTAF frequencies were completely cluttered, and Madison wasn't allowing anyone into their airspace who wasn't landing.  It's a madhouse.  I might have to take a week off of flying while the AirVenture is going on.

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Absolutely..  Years ago, I was checking out to rent a plane while on vacation... The cloud layer was much lower than it was forecast (or appeared).. We ended up spending an "undocumented" amount of time, actually IMC, getting back to the airport. I know that "technically", not calling Fargo approach and filing on the fly was illegal, but it would have been more distracting and dangerous that just heading back, descending into Gulf airspace and landing. I'd guess that we were IMC for maybe 4-5 minutes, the checkout  guy was a CFII, so I logged 0.2 hours of actual, dual, instrument. That was in no way, mis-representing the experience gained, and I'd do it again.


I'm glad that was tongue-n-cheek (I was pretty sure it was), but I always try to think of the hundreds of people who read these posts (not just the posters and responders, all of whom I pretty much know now    )... That line had to be challenged..

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Mind you, if you do GH in a TCAS equipped aircraft it really can help your lookout in a busy area. Mind you, I've also been in the situation were a (departures) controller has vectored straight into an area with three contacts and TCAS giving TAs like mad. Suffice to say we got rid of our radar service (once they finished calling the same traffic to us), went en-route VFR and went the other way! I think it was called "keeping the co-pilot (me that day) busy"!

You are correct (as I was corrected by the mentor). You can log PIC while training instrument, dual... and while under the hood, with a safety pilot (I knew that much)(I was just unsure about the X-country as PIC time). I still don't think it's a good idea that you can count time under the hood with an instructer in the plane, as time where you'd be utterly responsible for every aspect of the flight. From planning, to navigating, to diverting, to dealing with weather, and cross-winds and ALL that neat stuff that makes you an experienced pilot.... But I don't make the rules. Finding your way to a strange airport.. dealing with whatever comes your way, WITHOUT an instructor in the plane to back you up, is what X-country, PIC time  "should" be...  IMHO

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Agreed.. but that aint how it goes. Many (if not most) pilots are taking intrument dual flights WELL before they're experienced and competent enough to be a PIC. And trust me, when your under the hood for three hours, trying to concentrate on learning how to make all your turns, climbs and descents at a constant airspeed... +/-  50fpm and with standard rate turns (knowing the instructor is gonna cover up one (or more ) of your instruments at any time)... it doesn't strengthen your ability to be safely flying cross country, with passengers on board. You can't get lost, and don't have to worry about botching communications, or turning the plane upside down, or anything, really... because your instructor is right there.

Sure... any time behind the yoke is experience that makes you a better pilot. And intrument training makes you a better pilot, geometrically. I just think there's a big difference between, "pilot in command", and , "pilot taking training".


Here are the main requirements, hour-wise, for an instrument rating:

(1) At least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes for an instrument -- airplane rating; and

(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include --

You could, in theory, have only  ten hours in an airplane as a licensed pilot, where that plane is truly your sole responsibility (no safety pilot, or no instructor) and qualify for an instrument rating. And actually, many have less than that... because (if I'm not mistaken), any of your pre-PPL x-country, solo time can count towrd that 50 hours.

I realize that empirically, I'm wrong... because the people who make the rules say so. It's just my opinion that the 50 hours and the 40 hours should be seperate (and ALLL post PPL). Of course, I think that you should have 100 hours logged, post PPL, before taking a passenger up  

I know I'm guilty of the middle-aged, "caint be too careful". I took people up too, well before I had 100 hours post-PPL (in my early 20s). It's inevitable    If it were left soley to people near 50 years old to set the drinking age, it would probably be 30, not 21.

I think though, the safety record for low-hour pilots is exactly as you alluded... extra-careful (as in, not complacent)(and that's just human nature). Also, the "young" pilot's flights, with passengers, are likely to be short, in perfect weather and not subject to any "get-there-itis" (like taking off into marginal VFR and flying on top of clouds    ).

My brother didn't get to go up with me until I had 250 hours. Not because he didn't trust me... but because a friend of the family (retired airline pilot) said so. During my initial protests he said, "let's talk about this when you have 500 hours". Unfortunately, marriage and other priorities side-tracked my flying for 20+ years, so I didn't get to have that conversation with him. But I know now, what he meant.

I cringe when I think back at what the people who would/could go up with me were subjected to, right after getting my PPL.


Heck.. *smirk**   I cringe at what I subjected  YOU  to, when I was near 1200 hours