Simviation Forum - Community Watchdog Group

Reply #15 - Jul 16^th, 2007 at 5:21pm

JSpahn Offline
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I do think your approach is a good idea but its a bit too complicated to fully implement. What you can do is start a .org which is an independent FS watchdog site. Here is what this site should include

1. First get the word out
A. Put together a few words on what the problems are
2. Design a certification program
A. Include standards so that only the best flight sim sites pass
B. Give out an award so those sites so they can display it on the site(link to your .org)
3. Setup a watchdog message board
A. visitors can post suspicious activity
4. web directory
A. this directory should only include certified sites so any visitor will have a list of safe sites.

Then promote the heck out of it so the word gets out. Wink

This site would have to remain as independent as possible, that means any affiliation with any FS based site would have to cease.

The webmaster of said site would also have to contact as many flight sim related sites as possible to build a relationship in the community(too much work for me personally) Urge them to also inform their visitors to the problem.

That in my opinion is the best way to handle the problem, if done properly it could make an impact.

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Reply #16 - Jul 18^th, 2007 at 2:43am

Katahu Offline
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Here is an idea that I have shared with Masternerd.

Quote:

In my opinion, and based on my experience, addon piracy is committed when an individual intentionally steals the work[s] of the original author[s] [whether it's payware or freeware] without written and signed permission and sells the work for personal gain while leaving the author[s] with nothing. Addon piracy also includes situations where the pirate intentionally provides false information on who created the work so as to not look suspicious, provides false information on whether or not the he/she obtained written permission from the author[s], and where the pirate has modified the work[s] for the sole purpose of misleading the general public of who create the work[s].

The watchdog's mission should be more or less like the following.

The watchdog passively overlooks websites that are suspected or confirmed to be addon pirate sites or have the potential to be the pirate's financial base of operations for selling works of others without their written concent [ie: Ebay]. When the watchdog discovers a piracy in action, its duty is to report the incident to the true authors of the work[s] being pirated while posting the information into a centralized information website dedicated to this job where the report is then posted publically for everyone to see. People can then see the information posted to check whether or not their work has been pirated. The watchdog will also take preventive measures, such as informing new commers of the FS community on what the best places are for either payware or freeware addons so that they won't fall victim to a rip-off or scam set by an addon pirate.

The watchdog will NOT [in any way] act as an enforcer of copywrite protection. It's job will strictly be as a wistleblower so that the general public of the FS community will be made aware of the piracy being committed.

What do you all think?

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Reply #17 - Jul 18^th, 2007 at 7:13am

JSpahn Offline
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I do think time would be a huge part of the program but the amount of money needed would be very minimal, basically the cost of the server space and the domain. The certification program would need an award which would be designed in photoshop or something. Then you would need to urge those sites that participate in the program to include a write up on piracy. The moderator of such a site would have to review each site and determine if it is up to the standard for inclusion into the program.

All in all this method would be dependent on participation from fs sites, this would require tons of time to contact those sites with a description of the program. Informing them that this program will bring more freeware to the site because it is safe and also giving them a link in a directory is another incentive.

I also think you could branch out and include some payware sites, by using different standards and awards. Basically you could review things like does it have an encrypted checkout procedure, private policy etc... etc...

The watchdog element can be run thru a message board and moderated to insure no errors in judgement.

If done properly many fs pilots will be looking for that award on the respected fs site before a download or purchase. Its doable!

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Reply #18 - Jul 18^th, 2007 at 7:26am

Xyn_Air Offline
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Let me see if I am understanding all this correctly:

1) Piracy, including that of freeware, is a major contributing factor leading add-on developers to stop creating and contributing to the Flight Simulator community.

2) As the problem of piracy is pervasive across several different communities that are under different administrative bodies, an internal watchdog group would face the difficulty of trying to bring together various Flight Simulator community factions and get them to agree to a set of mutually binding rules or guidelines. This challenge could possibly be akin to the difficulty one would find in herding cats.

3) Piracy is easy and anti-piracy enforcement is difficult. Unfortunately, with present technologies and the speed of file distribution, it would seem a practical impossibility in attempting to stop piracy. Ever more reasonable goals seem to revolve around engendering non-binding agreements by website administrators to enforce anti-piracy policies over files they offer for download. Unfortunately, besides publicly identifying violators, without engaging in a legal process there are many gaps for pirates to exploit.

4) The scope of the problem leaves many members of the community feeling overwhelmed. Thus daunted, members of the community find it difficult to want to participate in anti-piracy endeavors. (see, herding cats through a dog pound).

Personally, I would love to tackle the issue of piracy, but I agree that it is a huge problem that is perhaps presently addressable on a community by community basis. That being said, the initial problem that seemed to grab everyone's attention was not so much the piracy (I think many are almost numb to its greater presence) but that we are losing developers to piracy. That is, developers are becoming frustrated and losing motivation to contribute to the Flight Simulator community.

While we may not be able to stomp out piracy, we may be able to address this problem from the other end. That is, what can we do to encourage happy, fulfilled developers who want to continue to contribute to the Flight Simulator community?

Do we offer sponsorship? Do we offer material incentives? Do we assist in finding a way of secure testing and distribution of materials? Do we send them brownies? Do we offer them a round-trip ticket to wherever for really good designs? Do we offer contests to designers with trophies and awards to appeal to their competitive nature? Do we simply ask what makes them tick and what do they want?

Yes, we should do what we can to stop piracy. But, anti-piracy efforts may be a Sisyphean task. So, perhaps we should re-direct our efforts to something that may be more possible a goal. Let's find out what will encourage developers to find happiness and fulfillment in their contributions and efforts on the behalf of the broader Flight Simulator community.

Ideas?

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Reply #19 - Jul 18^th, 2007 at 3:06pm

Katahu Offline
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One of the secondary duties for a watchdog group would be to focus on individual simmers who aren't fully aware of the vast community that already established itself over the year while providing an endless supply of quality and legitimate payware and freeware addons. Some of the blissfully-unaware flight sim fans are those who have been using the sim for some time, but weren't aware of the existing communities; while others are simply newbies who have just gotten their first version of FS and are also blissfully unaware.

It's these people that the watchdog group would have to focus on as well in order to combat piracy. It helps increase awareness while hindering the pirates' efforts on scamming or ripping off an unsuspecting FS fan. The less people the pirates can fool, the less money they get.

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Reply #20 - Jul 19^th, 2007 at 2:41pm

Katahu Offline
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It looks like people in other site forums like FlightSimWorld.com don't like this idea of a watchdog group. In fact, they appear to be most pessimistic group I have every seen when it comes to things like this. One kept telling me that it will never work, another kept telling me creating a watchdog site is a sure way of getting sued by the pirates for slander since the site will be making certain individuals look bad. After several failed attempts of clearing things up for them by changing the overall purpose of this group idea to a more sutble one [based on Masternerd's idea], I decided to ignore them and left the topic alone over at that site. It's that sort of pessimism that allowed pirates to easily rip off unsuspecting FS fans for years. I have never seen such low self esteem in my life.

If setting up a site like a watchdog group that only serves to show who is the pirate and who is not would get the members to be charged for slander, then why don't I see the same thing happening with the guy who created The Squeaky Wheel? I saw a show in the Discovery channel about things that we love to hate, and one of those things was customer service. The show featured Jeff Harris as the creator of the website. The hotal that he was complaining about told him that his idea of making TheSqueakyWheel.com would never work and they laughed at him. But as the site grew in popularity, the hotel didn't charge him for slander; instead, they settled the complaint he made before and all is right.

Now, if a site like The Squeaky Wheel can make an impact like that, then I'm confident that making a watchdog site in the way Masternerd pointed out will make an impact by making it difficult for pirates to fool an unsuspecting FS fan into buying pirated freeware and payware that may or may not work properly [or worse, screw up the Fs fan's computer].

I understand that stopping people from downloading pirated stuff using peer-to-peer software is virtually impossible, but you and I already know that's no longer the point.

So, who's willing to jump start this right now?

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Reply #21 - Jul 19^th, 2007 at 6:01pm

JBaymore Offline
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Katahu,

You have to also be VERY careful that this "watchdog" does not become "the junkkyard dog".

In other words, the policing and control of the members of the watchdog group needs to be VERY strong. Watchdog members "going off half cocked" can do more damage than good. Then the group simply becomes a vigalante posse ..... riding off into the night looking to do a lynching of the "bad guys".... or whomever they THINK are the bad guys.

Within one smaller community, look at what happens HERE when some SimV forum members go a bit overboard "policing" SimV rules themselves ........ and maybe being "less than diplomatic" in dealing with a problem or a PERCEIVED problem HERE. Instead of letting the mods take care of things... they try to "go it alone"...... and often it completely backfires, even though maybe inspired by some "good intentions".

Suddenly we have escalating angry posts going back and forth in the forum, angry and personal PMs, and then someone or multiple someones delete his/her/their account(s). That level of controversy and tension does little good in the "big picture".

And this is a MUCH smaller community than the whole flight sim "world".

You are going to need a strong, STRONG leadership structure... and serious rules about what the "member watchdogs" can and can not do directly. Too many of the WRONG people will want to be "the police".

My $0.02 worth.

best,

......................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #22 - Jul 19^th, 2007 at 6:07pm

eno Offline
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My suggestion ......... put numerous complaints in at squeeky wheel .... and advertise squeeky wheel on all the FS sites then peeps can choose to go and look at the complaints ...... and if email addresses of the relevant offenders are included in the complaint then they will be bombarded everytime someone looks at the complaint.

See ....... keeping things simple might be the best way of working.

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Reply #23 - Jul 19^th, 2007 at 11:34pm

Katahu Offline
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eno wrote on Jul 19^th, 2007 at 6:07pm:

My suggestion ......... put numerous complaints in at squeeky wheel .... and advertise squeeky wheel on all the FS sites then peeps can choose to go and look at the complaints ...... and if email addresses of the relevant offenders are included in the complaint then they will be bombarded everytime someone looks at the complaint.

See ....... keeping things simple might be the best way of working.

So, if I post a complaint at Squeaky Wheel about a seller that's making profit off of people's work without their permission, then they're gonna suffer the same way as the companies? Why didn't I think of that?

I agree with JBaymore. An effort like this will take a lot of careful planning and leadership. Nothing is more dangerous than the threat from within.

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