Simviation Forum - Congressional Gold Medal

Mar 28^th, 2007 at 1:47pm

ozzy72 Offline
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The Tuskegee Airmen are finally being awarded this this week! Without a doubt one of the best fighter groups of WWII with an enviable record! About time Cool

There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!

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Reply #1 - Mar 28^th, 2007 at 2:50pm

dcunning30 Offline
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Cool, I met one of them. He actually lives in my city. I've also been to the campus and the airfield in Tuskegee Alabama. The airfield (Moton Field) is still in use, but it's been allowed to deteriorate, which is a shame.

They are the only fighter group to have never lost a bomber to enemy figthter action.

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Reply #2 - Mar 28^th, 2007 at 3:29pm

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You know why they were so good?

1) since they weren't allowed to fight for such a long time, all they did was train, far more than any of the white pilots.
2) they knew they were under a microscope with so many powerful forces just waiting for them to slip up so they could be declared a failure.
3) they had the hopes and dreams of a whole race of people depending on their success.

Granted, that put alot of pressure on them, but they were determined to succeed, so there was no room for momentary lapses of judgement. Where other fighters felt free to roam away from their charges to tally up their kills scores. Colonel Benjamin O. Davis Jr. made it clear that discipline was to be maintained at all times and their primary mission was to protect the bombers, even when that meant letting easy kills get away.

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Reply #3 - Mar 28^th, 2007 at 4:16pm

ozzy72 Offline
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I've never met a Tuskegee myself (but I'd like too). I've however had the honour of spending some time with a couple of American WWII fighter jocks (one Eagle Sqn. member) and one from the 8th USAAF. What an amazing day that turned out to be. And all 'cos I stopped them getting ripped-off on the Euro exchange rate in a cake shop Cool

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Reply #4 - Mar 29^th, 2007 at 1:48am

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The record made by the Tuskegee airmen is a good one and one no other fighter squadron could match in WW2. They originally trained in P-40 Warhawks, were later eqipped with P-47's, and then P-51's.
Unfortunatly the claim they never lost a bomber to enemy combat is proving not to be true.

So far historians have come up with several reports, one written by Col. Davis, that state some bombers were lost. That does not in any way reflect on the groups immense bravery, skill and determination in protecting those they were escorting. Their determination at being the best was again proven in the 1949 USAF Gunnery competition. They won handily and silenced more of their critics. Many of the officers and enlisted mewn of the group were eagerly sought after by other squadrons because of their expertise and many went on to serve long and very distinguished careers.

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Reply #5 - Mar 29^th, 2007 at 4:29am

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Papa9571 wrote on Mar 29^th, 2007 at 1:48am:

The record made by the Tuskegee airmen is a good one and one no other fighter squadron could match in WW2. They originally trained in P-40 Warhawks, were later eqipped with P-47's, and then P-51's.
Unfortunatly the claim they never lost a bomber to enemy combat is proving not to be true.

So far historians have come up with several reports, one written by Col. Davis, that state some bombers were lost. That does not in any way reflect on the groups immense bravery, skill and determination in protecting those they were escorting. Their determination at being the best was again proven in the 1949 USAF Gunnery competition. They won handily and silenced more of their critics. Many of the officers and enlisted mewn of the group were eagerly sought after by other squadrons because of their expertise and many went on to serve long and very distinguished careers.

The claim is that they never lost an aircraft to enemy fighter action. The term "combat" goes further and covers everything. Flak for example, not a lot they could have done about that. However and regardless the Tuskegee airmen have a record and a legacy that the can be held way, way above pretty much everything else.
I watched a Discovery Channel program about these guys a while back, very educational.

Matt

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B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400

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Reply #6 - Mar 29^th, 2007 at 11:02am

dcunning30 Offline
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Charles Lane is the Tuskegee Airman I met. He lives in Omaha, Ne and according the the website, so does three others.

http://www.omahatuskegeeairmen.org/

http://www.chesterfieldarmament.com/bailey/tuskegee_titans/titan.php

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Reply #7 - Mar 30^th, 2007 at 12:01pm

dcunning30 Offline
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Article about a couple of local members:

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_page=2798&u_sid=2356419

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Reply #8 - Mar 30^th, 2007 at 12:53pm

ozzy72 Offline
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Great article DC Wink

There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!

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Reply #9 - Mar 30^th, 2007 at 2:05pm

dcunning30 Offline
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Pay no attention to that horrific, unshaven mug on the right. I picked up this replica WWII war bonds poster at Ft. MacArthur in San Pedro Ca.

« Last Edit: Mar 30^th, 2007 at 3:31pm by dcunning30 »

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Reply #10 - Mar 30^th, 2007 at 2:53pm

Mushroom_Farmer Offline
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Quote:

........Colonel Benjamin O. Davis Jr.........

Wasn't Col. Davis promoted to the rank of Brigadier General a few years back? I remember some ceremony for him but the particulars have escaped my mind.

&&&&"We're just sitting here trying to put our PCjrs in a pile and burn them. And the damn things won't burn. That's the only thing IBM did right with it - they made it flameproof." && Spinnaker Software chairman William Bowman, 1985

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Reply #11 - Mar 30^th, 2007 at 4:07pm

C Offline
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dcunning30 wrote on Mar 28^th, 2007 at 3:29pm:

You know why they were so good?

1) since they weren't allowed to fight for such a long time, all they did was train, far more than any of the white pilots.
2) they knew they were under a microscope with so many powerful forces just waiting for them to slip up so they could be declared a failure.
3) they had the hopes and dreams of a whole race of people depending on their success.

Quite. I suspect along with just about all who fought in the European air war from 1939-45, they had a little slice of luck too (maybe that slice of luck was initially being sent to the mediterranean theatre to perfect their trade).

Nice to see them being recognised though, even if it is a little late. I hope that one day the surviving crews of the RAF's Bomber Command will too be officially thanked for their sacrifices.

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Reply #12 - Mar 30^th, 2007 at 6:30pm

beaky Offline
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dcunning30 wrote on Mar 30^th, 2007 at 2:05pm:

Pay no attention to that horrific, unshaven mug on the right. I picked up this replica WWII war bonds poster at Ft. MacArthur in San Pedro Ca.

[img]

You could have cropped that... Roll Eyes

The bottom line concerning the Red Tails is that they certainly were lucky to never lose a bomber to enemy fighters, but they were good sticks, and real warriors. They endured a lot of humiliation and frustration in their effort to serve their country... this honor is long overdue, and I'm glad there are surviving members to feel that pride.

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Reply #13 - Apr 1^st, 2007 at 4:56am

ozzy72 Offline
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This just put on the web this morning...

MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) - At least 25 bombers being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen over Europe during World War II were shot down by enemy aircraft, according to a new Air Force report.
The report contradicts the legend that the famed black aviators never lost a plane to fire from enemy aircraft. But historian William Holton said the discovery of lost bombers doesn't tarnish the unit's record.
``It's impossible not to lose bombers,'' said Holton, national historian for Tuskegee Airmen Inc.
The report released Wednesday was based on after-mission reports filed by both the bomber units and Tuskegee fighter groups, as well as missing air crew records and witness testimony, said Daniel Haulman, a historian at the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery.
The tally includes only cases where planes were shot down by enemy aircraft, Haulman said. No one disputed the airmen lost some planes to anti-aircraft guns and other fire from the ground.
The 25 planes were shot down on five days: June 9, July 12, July 18 and July 20, 1944 and March 24, 1945, the Montgomery Advertiser reported.
``All of these records have been here all along,'' Haulman said. ``It was just a matter of putting them together.''
The surviving members of the Tuskegee Airmen, the first group of black fighter pilots allowed into the U.S. Army Air Corps, received the Congressional Gold Medal on Thursday from President Bush in Washington.
With nearly 1,000 pilots and as many as 19,000 support personnel ranging from mechanics to nurses, the group was credited with shooting down more than 100 enemy aircraft and - for years - with never losing an American bomber under escort.
Haulman told the Advertiser he had discovered the claim that the Tuskegee Airmen had never lost a bomber they escorted to enemy fire first appeared on March 24, 1945, in an article in the black newspaper Chicago Defender. The newspaper's headline read ``332nd Flies Its 200th Mission Without Loss.''
The information was attributed only to ``the 15th Air Force, Italy.''
``In fact, on the very day the claim was published, more bombers under 332nd Fighter Group escort were shot down,'' Haulman wrote.

Nevertheless an incredible feat of arms by those airmen Cool

There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!

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Reply #14 - Apr 2^nd, 2007 at 11:36am

dcunning30 Offline
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beaky wrote on Mar 30^th, 2007 at 6:30pm:

dcunning30 wrote on Mar 30^th, 2007 at 2:05pm:

Pay no attention to that horrific, unshaven mug on the right. I picked up this replica WWII war bonds poster at Ft. MacArthur in San Pedro Ca.

[img]

You could have cropped that... Roll Eyes

OK, you busted me out! I'm making changes, post haste!

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