Simviation Forum - Mindboggling!

Mar 14^th, 2007 at 2:25pm

dcunning30 Offline
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The scale of this bloodbath would have been mindboggling.

All I can say is it was merciful that the atomic bombs were dropped.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/Japan.htm

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Reply #1 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 2:55pm

beaky Offline
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Nice find; I've never seen details of that before.

But I've met more than one WWII Pacific Theater vet who was damned thankful that those weapons were used... they knew all too well what they would have been sent into.

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Reply #2 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 3:08pm

dcunning30 Offline
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beaky wrote on Mar 14^th, 2007 at 2:55pm:

Nice find; I've never seen details of that before.

But I've met more than one WWII Pacific Theater vet who was damned thankful that those weapons were used... they knew all too well what they would have been sent into.

Those guys at that website are amazing. They've enbarked on a project to research and record TROMS (tabularture record of movement) of every Japanese ship during the WWII years. That is a staggering enterprise, and they've listed TROMs of hundereds of ships on that site, so far.

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Reply #3 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 3:16pm

Heretic Ex Member

And no one thinks of the other side, huh?

Soldiers exist to die, civilians don't.

You guys are disgusting.

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Reply #4 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 3:30pm

dcunning30 Offline
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Quote:

And no one thinks of the other side, huh?

Soldiers exist to die, civilians don't.

You guys are disgusting.

Huh??????

Most of the books I have been buying about the Pacific War as of late have been from the perspective of "the other side". The book I'm currently reading is Blossoms in the Wind the human legacy of the Kamikaze. It's a book of interviews of Tokko pilots who survived the war.

I've read the biography of Isoroku Yamamoto, the autobiography of Mitsuo Fuchida and Saburo Sakai, to name just a few of the titles from "the other side" that I've read. I have a book on IJN Navy aces, as well as several titles that contain text as a result of interviews of many Japanese participants.

So, what are you talking about????

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Reply #5 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 3:43pm

dcunning30 Offline
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In fact, I've become so interested in things Japanese (the other side), I've begun teaching myself the language and hope to visit Japan some day.

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Reply #6 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 5:23pm

Heretic Ex Member

Killing thousands of civilians with two nukes is simply wrong, even if it was meant to spare the lives of the invading and defending soldiers.

War is a thing that should be fought out in the battlezones and not by eraicationg cities.

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Reply #7 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 5:35pm

dcunning30 Offline
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Quote:

Killing thousands of civilians with two nukes is simply wrong, even if it was meant to spare the lives of the invading and defending soldiers.

War is a thing that should be fought out in the battlezones and not by eraicationg cities.

You're welcome you your opinion. I would prefer that the next time you rebuke us, you come from a position of knowlege of the matter. If you don't know about the matter, I'm more than willing to explain things since it's a subject I enjoy talking about.

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Reply #8 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 8:35pm

H Offline
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Quote:

Killing thousands of civilians with two nukes is simply wrong, even if it was meant to spare the lives of the invading and defending soldiers.
War is a thing that should be fought out in the battlezones and not by eradicating cities.

In this case, Björn, it was also to spare the lives of many more, both military and civilian Japanese. All viable attempts had to be made to make them understand that surrender was their best and only, asap, option -- something unattainable by normal means with a 'victory at all costs (aka suicidal) social structure'. With their naval fleet so diminished, Japan could only launch effective offensives within the basic radius of its homelands; it was on the defensive. When the BOMBS were dropped, the Japanese did not know how many more were, or would be, available -- if this was to be the means, they could have no 'honorable' death in battle, no enemy at close quarters. Would the entire nation submit to suicide -- probably not; at some point, defeat was inevitable.
As to the Alllied command (you get to be in the U.S. military for this Cheesy

):
as your commander, do you think I would want to send Björn into battle against two, three or more odds if there was a way to avoid it? Reducing the enemy's resolve, arsenal, machinery and personnel increases Björn's chances of survival. That is an intent of artillery barrages -- and bombs.

Glad you survived... so far

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Reply #9 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 9:22am

dcunning30 Offline
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H, Thanks for posting that. After he said I was disgusting, I had to make sure to be careful how to respond to him in order to not evoke the wrath of the admins. All he had to do was to ask, and I would be very willing to explain the 18th century warfare he advocated was just not possible in the mid 20th century Japan.

It's actually a fascinating study of how Japan saw itself and how the world saw Japan after the Meji restoration and especially how it morphed into national militerism in the Showa period.

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Reply #10 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 10:02am

Heretic Ex Member

H wrote on Mar 14^th, 2007 at 8:35pm:

as your commander, do you think I would want to send Björn into battle against two, three or more odds if there was a way to avoid it? Reducing the enemy's resolve, arsenal, machinery and personnel increases Björn's chances of survival. That is an intent of artillery barrages -- and bombs.

Artillery barrages and bombs in preparation for a military operation are usually aimed at miltary targets and units.

Not at cities or other civilian installations.

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Reply #11 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 10:22am

dcunning30 Offline
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Quote:

H wrote on Mar 14^th, 2007 at 8:35pm:

as your commander, do you think I would want to send Björn into battle against two, three or more odds if there was a way to avoid it? Reducing the enemy's resolve, arsenal, machinery and personnel increases Björn's chances of survival. That is an intent of artillery barrages -- and bombs.

Artillery barrages and bombs in preparation for a military operation are usually aimed at miltary targets and units.

Not at cities or other civilian installations.

A planned invasion has pre-invasion bombing designed to soften up the target . A military invasion have military objectives. Bombing schools, hospitals, homes, etc does absolutely nothing to achieve the military objective.

Softening up the target is designed to reduce the enemy's ability to fight against you. That means locations where there are military personnel with guns who can shoot back, not classrooms full of children or hospitals full of invalids.

Bun in warfare, even though civilians usually aren't targets, though there have been exceptions (9/11), civilians have been victims of the warfare. Unfortunately, that is unavoidable. 18th century warefare will remain in the 18th century.

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Reply #12 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 10:35am

Heretic Ex Member

So you're justifying killing civillians with the assumption that they *may* be future enemys?

And even if the enemy kills civilians, it doesn't mean that you're allowed to do so, too!

I wasn't talking about modern warfare in the first place, I was just slapping the bombings of japanies cites with the images and consequences of the bombings of european cities in the back of my head.

Bringing war to civilians was, is and will always be wrong. No matter how "good" the arguments may be.
Bombing the crap out of german, english, belgian, polish, spanish and japanese cities has achieved nothing. It has neither broken the morale of the civilian population nor has it driven the leaders into surrendering.

And I'm sure that even the japanese "government" would have admitted defeat if there had been a clean allied invasion.

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Reply #13 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 10:45am

dcunning30 Offline
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Quote:

So you're justifying killing civillians with the assumption that they *may* be future enemys?

I purposed to tone down my statements. But anyway, do not put words into my mouth. I never justified anything of the sort.

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And even if the enemy kills civilians, it doesn't mean that you're allowed to do so, too!

Nobody wants to kill civilians. Roll Eyes

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I wasn't talking about modern warfare in the first place, I was just slapping the bombings of japanies cites with the images and consequences of the bombings of european cities in the back of my head.

It is what it is. As long as there are evil people doing evil things, like the Nazi's starting wars, exterminating Jews, brutalizing Slavic people (recall the sad tale of the Czech villiage of Lidice), we have the unfortunate consequences, such as the bombing of Dresden or Hamburg.

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Bringing war to civilians was, is and will always be wrong. No matter how "good" the arguments may be.

I'm willing to hear your realistic solutions to solve this.

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Bombing the crap out of german, english, belgian, polish, spanish and japanese cities has achieved nothing. It has neither broken the morale of the civilian population nor has it driven the leaders into surrendering.

Well with respect to WWII, the bombings did serve to help end those wars. And it had nothing to do with "breaking morale" it had to do with destroying the enemy's ability to supply it's war-making ability.

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And I'm sure that even the japanese "government" would have admitted defeat if there had been a clean allied invasion.

After having studied this over the years, I am sure you are definately, 100% wrong!

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Reply #14 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 11:54am

Heretic Ex Member

dcunning30 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2007 at 10:45am:

It is what it is. As long as there are evil people doing evil things, like the Nazi's starting wars, exterminating Jews, brutalizing Slavic people (recall the sad tale of the Czech villiage of Lidice), we have the unfortunate consequences, such as the bombing of Dresden or Hamburg.

There is no, absolutely no connection between the bomb war and the Holocaust, so it can't be seen as a "consequence".

I'd put the bomb war right into line with the Holocaust and other crimes to humanity.

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I'm willing to hear your realistic solutions to solve this.

Don't shoot at civilians. Period.

If they have a gun pointing at you, you can shoot them.

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Well with respect to WWII, the bombings did serve to help end those wars. And it had nothing to do with "breaking morale" it had to do with destroying the enemy's ability to supply it's war-making ability.

When the bombings were so effective, how come the german industry punched out more weapons, airplanes, tanks, etc...than ever out of their factories in the years 44/45?

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After having studied this over the years, I am sure you are definately, 100% wrong!

Still no argument to see the nuclear attacks as an act of "mercy".

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