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VSYNC in Flight Simulator 2004 (Read 5298 times)
Jan 31st, 2007 at 3:32am

FridayChild   Offline
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In my endless struggle to eliminate blurries (which, in my case, are mostly due to a limited amount of VRAM) I've tried to disable the VSYNC in my video card driver properties, and I set the "maximum pre-rendered frames" to a very high value (250, which is ten times my frame rate limit of 25; which means that the CPU can pre-render up to 10 seconds of images). The idea is to have the CPU work in behalf of the GPU instead of basically sitting waiting for the next scene to be rendered. I'm under the impression that this actually helps: I set VSYNC to on, had a lot of blurries, paused FS and switched off VSYNC (and pre-render to 250), then came back to FS and the blurries had mostly gone. Anyway, I found that VSYNC off causes some tearing of the image.
What are your thoughts?
 

Founder of A.A.A.A.A.A.A. (Aircraft Amateurs' Association Against Absurd Aviation Acronyms) My system specifications: FLIGHT SIMULATOR 2004 - AMD Athlon 64 3200+ CPU - 3 GB PC-3200 DDR400 dual channel RAM - 500 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200 rpm SATA-II hard disk - Sapphire Radeon HD 5750 1 GB PCI-E graphic card - Logitech Wingman Force 3D joystick + Logitech Formula Force pedals My FS whereabouts: low and slow, small single engine prop GA, Italy airfields.
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Reply #1 - Jan 31st, 2007 at 6:46am

ctjoyce   Offline
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All V sync does is keeps your frames from exceding your refresh rate. So if you have your refresh rate set to 75mhz, then your FPS will not excede 75FPS.

Cheers
Cameron
 

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Reply #2 - Jan 31st, 2007 at 9:09am

FridayChild   Offline
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Yep, I know that, but - at least with my video card driver - the only way to enable that pre-rendering feature (i.e. have the CPU pre-chew data to relieve some burden from the GPU) is to turn Vsync off. You can't have one without the other. And in turn, turning Vsync on causes some tearing.
So my questions are:
1) in your experience, does CPU pre-rendering actually reduce blurries
2) do you know of a way to set up the system so that, with Vsync off, tearing is reduced to a minimum?
 

Founder of A.A.A.A.A.A.A. (Aircraft Amateurs' Association Against Absurd Aviation Acronyms) My system specifications: FLIGHT SIMULATOR 2004 - AMD Athlon 64 3200+ CPU - 3 GB PC-3200 DDR400 dual channel RAM - 500 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200 rpm SATA-II hard disk - Sapphire Radeon HD 5750 1 GB PCI-E graphic card - Logitech Wingman Force 3D joystick + Logitech Formula Force pedals My FS whereabouts: low and slow, small single engine prop GA, Italy airfields.
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Reply #3 - Jan 31st, 2007 at 11:36am

justpassingthrough   Offline
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Vsync should be set to APPLICATION PREFERENCE or 'use 3D Application' not ON or OFF

When I was running FS9 I used the settings NickN posted and also did his system optimizing suggestions: http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=FSX;action=display;num=116...


I dont have a copy of the link but I did save a copy of what he posted for setting up the sim, the configuration file and drivers:

====================================

FS9 CONFIGURATION FILE REBUILD


Save a copy of your current FS9.cfg file in a safe place. Then DELETE the FS9.cfg file being used by the sim.

Start Flight Simulator. You will be starting clean with a new FS9.cfg file Let the sim boot and go to the SETTINGS area. Make the following changes:

DISPLAY BUTTON:  
Scenery Tab:  
All sliders to 100% and ALL check boxes checked (water FX on 100%)

Aircraft Tab:
Drop down box, select HIGH, which should enable everything

Weather Tab:
60 -40 – 100 with Detailed Clouds and 100% maximum density

Hardware Tab:
Frame Lock @ 24
XXXXxXXXXx32, NOTE: SET THIS TO YOUR MONITORS NATIVE RESOLUTION - X32
Check in: Render to Texture, Transform and Lighting, UNCHECK AA,
Set to: Trillinear Filtering
Mip Quality 4 FOR ATI, 8 FOR NVIDIA
Hardware Lights 8,
Global Texture Slider 100%

CLICK OK

SOUND BUTTON:
Sound to MEDIUM, you can put the sliders wherever you wish, click OK
You can set this back to HIGH after tests are completed and your sim is smooth.


TRAFFIC BUTTON:
Traffic to 90%, (no less than 85) click OK


REALISM BUTTON
Drop down Box; set to HARD, UNCHECK allow collisions with other aircraft. AUTO RUDDER should be enabled if you fly keyboard and do not use pedals. Click OK


WEATHER BUTTON:
Check only Download Winds Aloft with real world weather, click OK


Close the sim

Once you close the sim a new FS9.cfg file will be written with the settings you just made. Open the new FS9.cfg file in notepad and edit the following:



[CONTROLS]
PAN_RATE=700

[DISPLAY]
UPPER_FRAMERATE_LIMIT=24 // no more, reduce to 22 in some cases
TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT=110 (also try 100 or 80 if 110 gives stutters)
TextureMaxLoad=8 //This is a setting that is not very well known, copy it exactly as it is shown here. It can fix blurries if the right TexBan Mult is used

[TERRAIN]
TERRAIN_ERROR_FACTOR=100.000000
TERRAIN_MIN_DEM_AREA=10.000000
TERRAIN_MAX_DEM_AREA=100.000000
TERRAIN_MAX_VERTEX_LEVEL=21
TERRAIN_TEXTURE_SIZE_EXP=8
TERRAIN_AUTOGEN_DENSITY=5
TERRAIN_USE_GRADIENT_MAP=1
TERRAIN_EXTENDED_TEXTURES=1
TERRAIN_DEFAULT_RADIUS=9.9//also try 8
TERRAIN_EXTENDED_RADIUS=9.0// also try 8
TERRAIN_EXTENDED_LEVELS=4// also try 1

[SCENERY]
IMAGE_COMPLEXITY=5
DYNAMIC_SCENERY=1
DYN_SCN_DENSITY=5
DAWN_DUSK_SMOOTHING=1
SUNGLARE=1
LENSFLARE=1

save the config file


Nvidia Drivers

AF=16x
Anisotropic Mip filter optimization = ON
Anisotropic sample optimization = ON
AA = 4x
Conformant texture clamp = use hardware
Extension limit = OFF
Force MipMaps = none
Gamma correct AA = ON
Hardware Acceleration = Single Display Performance mode
Ignore open GL error = ON
Negative LOD BIOS = CLAMP
OpenGL threading = AUTO
Texture Filtering= HIGH QUALITY //Also try QUALITY (note: set the optimizers first before setting this to HIGH QUALITY)
Transparency AA = OFF
Trillinear Optimizationfiltered=ON
Triple Buffering = ON
Vertical Sync = use 3D Application

It is important for LCD the scaling in the Nivida control panel is set to:

'Use my displays built in scaling" or "Monitor Scaling"

If you use as CRT monitor… make SURE you set it up to the NATIVE RESOLUTION and run the highest refresh rate it will run without stressing the unit. 85Hz is the LOWEST recommended refresh rate for a CRT monitor.

=============================================



Those settings had me flying high. I also used Flight Enviornment DXT3 Low resolution clouds which pretty much finished the job and brought it all together for frames and blurries.


 
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Reply #4 - Jan 31st, 2007 at 11:50am

FridayChild   Offline
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Some questions:

"Vsync should be set to APPLICATION PREFERENCE or 'use 3D Application' not ON or OFF"
This means "let FS9 decide". What does FS9 decide about Vsync? On or Off?

"TextureMaxLoad=8 //This is a setting that is not very well known, copy it exactly as it is shown here. It can fix blurries if the right TexBan Mult is used"
What is TexBan Mult, and what is the right setting?

"Anisotropic Mip filter optimization = ON
Anisotropic sample optimization = ON
Texture Filtering= HIGH QUALITY //Also try QUALITY (note: set the optimizers first before setting this to HIGH QUALITY)"

From what I gather of the display driver online help, optimizations are unavailable/off by default if High Quality is selected. That is, setting them to on or off should not be relevant.
 

Founder of A.A.A.A.A.A.A. (Aircraft Amateurs' Association Against Absurd Aviation Acronyms) My system specifications: FLIGHT SIMULATOR 2004 - AMD Athlon 64 3200+ CPU - 3 GB PC-3200 DDR400 dual channel RAM - 500 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200 rpm SATA-II hard disk - Sapphire Radeon HD 5750 1 GB PCI-E graphic card - Logitech Wingman Force 3D joystick + Logitech Formula Force pedals My FS whereabouts: low and slow, small single engine prop GA, Italy airfields.
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Reply #5 - Jan 31st, 2007 at 12:47pm

justpassingthrough   Offline
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FridayChild wrote on Jan 31st, 2007 at 11:50am:
Some questions:

"Vsync should be set to APPLICATION PREFERENCE or 'use 3D Application' not ON or OFF"
This means "let FS9 decide". What does FS9 decide about Vsync? On or Off?

"TextureMaxLoad=8 //This is a setting that is not very well known, copy it exactly as it is shown here. It can fix blurries if the right TexBan Mult is used"
What is TexBan Mult, and what is the right setting?

"Anisotropic Mip filter optimization = ON
Anisotropic sample optimization = ON
Texture Filtering= HIGH QUALITY //Also try QUALITY (note: set the optimizers first before setting this to HIGH QUALITY)"

From what I gather of the display driver online help, optimizations are unavailable/off by default if High Quality is selected. That is, setting them to on or off should not be relevant.



1. FS9 varies Vsync to ON when it's needed which is where it should be in the drivers, but not all applications work best with the drivers set to ON so setting it to 'application' makes sure it is right for all software

2. TexBan Mult was my abbriviation for =TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT and the setting shown above is correct (between 80 and 110 for your card... 160 for 512mb fast cards) The 2nd setting TextureMaxLoad= is a setting the FS9 developers left out of the file.

Keep in mind the below was posted for FSX.. FS9 is different. Using the TextureMaxLoad= with the correct TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT forces FS9 to render and sharpen ground textures. FSX does not have the TextureMaxLoad= switch available to it and is a constant that can not be changed.

Here is the math and how it works:

======================================================

Texture bandwidth multiplier is max at 400. 400 is the max in both FS9 and FSX. That has been posted by both FS9 and FSX developers. If the value (or any value) of a line in the config file is not present or is not within the specified program range set by the developers when the sim is booted, the value will default. The default values when such things occur are unknown for many of the settings.  

According to the information I read some time ago on these forums posted by NickN about tweaking the FS9.cfg file for texture bandwidth, it would be quite impossible for a value of 600 to work unless the person is running a 1gig video card.  

The number multiplies a hidden value called the TextureMaxLoad. By default that is 3. The TextureMaxLoad is the number of 256x256 (in FS9) textures to be loading in KB to the system. The TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT does exactly that, it multiplies that number. So that would mean Mango is loading 600x3 (1024x1024 in KB) assuming he has not installed a texture reduction tweak and even if he has and is running 256x256 textures, it is mathematically impossible for a video card memory of less than 1gb to work a value of 600 for the multiplier

The value has simply defaulted to a number that his system likes and he thinks 600 is working.  

NickN told me the TextureMaxLoad= value can be edited into the FS9.cfg file however he said that setting is not available in FSX because the rendering engine is different. I used NickN's FS9.cfg file tweaks and that sim never looked or flew better. The values he posted for FS9 in the area we are discussing were:

TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT=160 (and reduce to 100-120 if stutters occur)
TextureMaxLoad=8 (reduce to 6 on slower cards)

It was stated that 128mb cards may not be able to handle that setting and that 256mb cards were recommended for its use. If a 128 card is used, a value of 6 / 80 may work.

160x8=1280
400x3=1200 (default TextureMaxLoad)

That produces almost the same total value, however the difference is the fiber engine is directed to load the amount in KB of 8 256x256 textures (instead of 3 256x256 textures) and reserve the resources for the the bandwidth. That forces the ground textures to take priority and the fiber engine will then sharpen them before it does anything else. When correctly tuned with the other settings in the config file the difference in FS9 is night and day when it comes to stutters and scenery loads.  
=================================================

3. I forgot to add that NickN had me install the NetFramework 2.0 and this Nivida Tweaker: http://nvtweak.laptopvideo2go.com/  NvTray Beta 4: http://nvtweak.laptopvideo2go.com/beta/NVTray_BETA4-x86.exe which allows you to run HIGH QUALITY with all the optimizers ON. Set them to ON in the Nv control panel and THEN use the tweaker to change the image from QUALITY to HIGH QUALITY. Also, that tweaker enables the Nvidia overclocking tools which I use as well.

 
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Reply #6 - Jan 31st, 2007 at 2:25pm

FridayChild   Offline
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Thanks so much. I will try all these tweaks as soon as possible and keep you posted.

EDIT: I've tried all the tweaks except installing NVTweak (so I wasn't able to set the driver to High Quality while at the same time turning on the optimizers). As soon as possible I'll install .NET 2 and NVTweak, but having applied all the other tweaks (FS options, FS9.CFG modifications, driver settings) I am still getting blurries; to be honest I didn't notice a difference even though I've changed so many things.
I'm beginning to think that my system and/or video card is just not good enough for a demanding application like FS9.  Cry
« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2007 at 8:04am by FridayChild »  

Founder of A.A.A.A.A.A.A. (Aircraft Amateurs' Association Against Absurd Aviation Acronyms) My system specifications: FLIGHT SIMULATOR 2004 - AMD Athlon 64 3200+ CPU - 3 GB PC-3200 DDR400 dual channel RAM - 500 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200 rpm SATA-II hard disk - Sapphire Radeon HD 5750 1 GB PCI-E graphic card - Logitech Wingman Force 3D joystick + Logitech Formula Force pedals My FS whereabouts: low and slow, small single engine prop GA, Italy airfields.
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Reply #7 - Feb 2nd, 2007 at 4:22am

Ivan   Offline
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Vsync has only use if you have an app that
1: in 90% of the time gets more FPS than you have Hz
2: allows FPS to be locked also to prevent fps rate fluctuations (lock it to monitor Hz)

For all tech junkies that are bragging about getting 120 fps in old games... if using a 60Hz flatcreen, you'll be wasting 50% of your videocard power as you arent getting over 60fps on the output EVER.

So if you want to impress your school friends with high 3dmark scores... keep it off.
If you want a stutter free game experience... Set VSync on, limit your framerate to the refresh, and use the excess cycles for eyecandy.
 

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones),  Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here
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Reply #8 - Feb 2nd, 2007 at 5:55am

FridayChild   Offline
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Maybe I'm missing something here.
It should be: turn your vsync on, set a reasonable frame rate limit below the display refresh rate, and use the spared resources for eye candy.
Anyway, it seems that, at least with NVidia driver, the only way to have the CPU pre-process some of the scenes to be rendered, is to turn vsync off. If vsync is on, no scene pre-processing is done by the CPU.
The ideal would be to have vsync on and the CPU pre-processing, but as it is...
 

Founder of A.A.A.A.A.A.A. (Aircraft Amateurs' Association Against Absurd Aviation Acronyms) My system specifications: FLIGHT SIMULATOR 2004 - AMD Athlon 64 3200+ CPU - 3 GB PC-3200 DDR400 dual channel RAM - 500 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200 rpm SATA-II hard disk - Sapphire Radeon HD 5750 1 GB PCI-E graphic card - Logitech Wingman Force 3D joystick + Logitech Formula Force pedals My FS whereabouts: low and slow, small single engine prop GA, Italy airfields.
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Reply #9 - Feb 2nd, 2007 at 9:17am

Ivan   Offline
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Doesnt count for FS9... that graphics engine will never do 100FPs in the coming 4 years (too much still on processor side).

On Unreal Tournament (original) you can go WAY over the refresh rate with a current machine
 

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones),  Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here
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Reply #10 - Feb 2nd, 2007 at 2:49pm

FridayChild   Offline
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Mm, I'm not after faster frame rates. 25 fps is fine for me.
What I am looking for are sharp ground textures. If the CPU can do some of the rendering, then sweet deal.
 

Founder of A.A.A.A.A.A.A. (Aircraft Amateurs' Association Against Absurd Aviation Acronyms) My system specifications: FLIGHT SIMULATOR 2004 - AMD Athlon 64 3200+ CPU - 3 GB PC-3200 DDR400 dual channel RAM - 500 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200 rpm SATA-II hard disk - Sapphire Radeon HD 5750 1 GB PCI-E graphic card - Logitech Wingman Force 3D joystick + Logitech Formula Force pedals My FS whereabouts: low and slow, small single engine prop GA, Italy airfields.
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Reply #11 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 2:18am
конкистадор   Ex Member

 
Vsync dosn't always cause stutters or image tearing.  I find it's better to leave it off to gain an additional frame rate or two - yes, it does affect performance (slightly). I think it's best for you to find what setting you like)
 
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Reply #12 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 5:24pm
sgt donut   Ex Member

 
Quote:
Vsync dosn't always cause stutters or image tearing.  I find it's better to leave it off to gain an additional frame rate or two - yes, it does affect performance (slightly). I think it's best for you to find what setting you like)


as said above VSYNC locks your frames to your rehresh rate, so if you are running ahed of your refresh rate i.e. 100fps ona 60mhz monitor VSYNC will help in performance as it will free up resources. VSYNC is also used to prevent getting "rips" on the screen.
 
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