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That was stupid.. (Read 376 times)
Reply #15 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 4:31am

Theis   Offline
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Theis wrote on Jan 29th, 2007 at 6:24am:
Tomorrow it is 62 years ago, that 9.343 people drowned in the Baltic seas ice cold water.
Last week I promised to proof, why we never had a greater time than now. and because of that, I have to ask you to open a wound. that wound is 62 years old tomorrow, and I'm gonna bet, that you aren't celebrating this day in any way, which is odd, because it happened in our own backyard. 115 kilometres east of Nexø on Bornholm in the ice green Baltic sea.

[img]

9.343 people is laying down there on the bottom of the sea, 45 metres below the grey waves.
9.343 men, women and children. Germans, you might say, and if you know your maths, you've already discovered, that those many Germans died 30. January, where world war two was taking its last breaths.
And in a way it was their fault. oh yes, they started the bloody war six years earlier, and the hate was overwhelming in the last months of the war.
Because they started it. and now they had to pay the price. And the 9.343 men, women and children were German men, German women, and German children, that all had to die. That would learn them a lesson!

And they did. out in the Baltic sea 30. January, 62 years ago. Oh how they learned it. Their ship was named 'Wilhelm Gusloff' and were originally built as a passenger ship to demonstrate how well the Nazis took care of their workers, but when the war started, it was rebuilt as a hospital ship and later as a barracks ship for U boat crews under training. But early in the morning 30. January 1945 'Wilhelm Gusloff' left Gdynia near Gdansk headed for Kiel. Aboard were 10.582 people. The ship was built for 2.000 passengers, so the space had been very little. But Gusloff was the only way out of Gdansk, that wasn't named Gdansk at that time, because the city was German, and was named Danzig, and the majority were refugees, escaping from the Russian army
Precisely was 8.956 of the passengers refugees. The rest were 918 German officers, 373 female Technicians from the German Navy, 162 badly wounded soldiers, and a crew of 173.
And of course was Wilhelm Gusloff officially a war ship.
There's nothing to brag about there.

[img]

Captain Alexander Marinesko from the Russian U-boat S-13 broke no rules, when he launched three torpedoes against 'Wilhelm Gusloff' right after 9pm in the evening the 30. January 1945.
And all three torpedoes hit their target. In the panic that followed, many of the refugees were trampled in the rush to lifeboats and life jackets. Some equipment was lost as a result of the panic. The water temperature in the Baltic Sea at this time of year is usually around 4°C; however, this was a particularly cold day, with an air temperature of -10° to -18° C and ice floes covering the surface. Many deaths were either caused directly by the torpedoes or by instant drowning in the incoming water. Others were crushed in the ensuing panic on the stairs and decks, and many jumped into the icy, dark Baltic water. Many reports suggest children were clinging on to adults and women tried to save babies, though constant waves dragged them away from them, many not to be seen ever again. Small children fitted with life jackets for adults drowned because their heads were under water while their legs were in the air.

In under 50 minutes after being struck, the Wilhelm Gustloff sank in a depth of 45 meters (150 feet).
About 1.000 survivors were rescued by nearby ships, but 9.343 people died that night, 62 years ago.
This would make it the worst loss of life in a single sinking in maritime history.
And they are still down there, 115 km east of Nexø. Out in the backyard..

And the really fun part is, that U-boat captain Alexander Marinesko only 11 days later, the 10. February killed another 4.500 people, when his U-boat sunk the  cargo ship 'General von Steuben' with 2.000 wounded soldiers, 320 nurses, 30 doctors and about 1.000 refugees in the same ocean.
ONE man killed nearly 14.000 people in under two weeks. That's a though one to beat. and that would explain his acceleration alcoholism, that later led to his reassignment in September 1945, and later his all to late death in 1963. All because of stupidity..

Cheers Theis.. Undecided


And please.. PLEASE try to read the WHOLE text, before bashing me!!!
 

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Reply #16 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 9:18am
Heretic   Ex Member

 
Theis wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 4:20am:
Geez.. Muhammed crisis over again..


Funny stuff that was. Grin


P.S: People die every day by thousands. So why make a fuss about a number?
 
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Reply #17 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 4:49pm

dcunning30   Offline
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You guys are really wound too tightly.  It was an interesting historical event.  I never knew about it.  It was what it was.  Was there vengence?  Maybe, especially given that it was an all white, clearly ocean liner looking ship.  It screams "civilians on-board".  Rather than get in a tizzy over who's posting with enough sensitivity, I'm more interested in analyzing the event, in it's greater Eastern Front context.
 

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Reply #18 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:34pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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dcunning30 wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 4:49pm:
You guys are really wound too tightly.  It was an interesting historical event.  I never knew about it.  It was what it was.  Was there vengence?  Maybe, especially given that it was an all white, clearly ocean liner looking ship.  It screams "civilians on-board".  Rather than get in a tizzy over who's posting with enough sensitivity, I'm more interested in analyzing the event, in it's greater Eastern Front context.

Did you not read what I posted. When this ship was sunk she was painted navy grey. Also, the attack happened at night and the only thing that alerted the sub to the presence of the ship was the fact that the ship had it's nav lights turned on. You cannot, in any way call the attack vengence.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #19 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:40pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Woodlouse2002 wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:34pm:
dcunning30 wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 4:49pm:
You guys are really wound too tightly.  It was an interesting historical event.  I never knew about it.  It was what it was.  Was there vengence?  Maybe, especially given that it was an all white, clearly ocean liner looking ship.  It screams "civilians on-board".  Rather than get in a tizzy over who's posting with enough sensitivity, I'm more interested in analyzing the event, in it's greater Eastern Front context.

Did you not read what I posted. When this ship was sunk she was painted navy grey. Also, the attack happened at night and the only thing that alerted the sub to the presence of the ship was the fact that the ship had it's nav lights turned on. You cannot, in any way call the attack vengence.



I stand corrected.  I missed that quote.  But I never concluded the attack was vengence.  I merely brought it up as something that might be explored.  I didn't have enough info to draw that conclusion or any other.  But still, considering the ship was grey and the attack was at night doesn't exhonerate the sub captain from observing the sillouette being that of an ocean liner.  As I said, I don't know enough to draw a conclusion, but it would make for an interesting discussion.
 

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Reply #20 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:52pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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dcunning30 wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:40pm:
Woodlouse2002 wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:34pm:
dcunning30 wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 4:49pm:
You guys are really wound too tightly.  It was an interesting historical event.  I never knew about it.  It was what it was.  Was there vengence?  Maybe, especially given that it was an all white, clearly ocean liner looking ship.  It screams "civilians on-board".  Rather than get in a tizzy over who's posting with enough sensitivity, I'm more interested in analyzing the event, in it's greater Eastern Front context.

Did you not read what I posted. When this ship was sunk she was painted navy grey. Also, the attack happened at night and the only thing that alerted the sub to the presence of the ship was the fact that the ship had it's nav lights turned on. You cannot, in any way call the attack vengence.



I stand corrected.  I missed that quote.  But I never concluded the attack was vengence.  I merely brought it up as something that might be explored.  I didn't have enough info to draw that conclusion or any other.  But still, considering the ship was grey and the attack was at night doesn't exhonerate the sub captain from observing the sillouette being that of an ocean liner.  As I said, I don't know enough to draw a conclusion, but it would make for an interesting discussion.

In war time a nations ocean liners are quite often seized by the Navy for use as troop transports, hospital ships and sometimes as Light Cruisers. So unless the ship is white, with a big red cross painted all over it then it is a legitimate target.

Secondly you have to look at the nature of submarine warfare, and the nature of those fighting it. The job of a submarine is to cause as much disruption to enemy shipping as possible. The german U-boats for example would sink literally anything they came across from yachts to liners to battleships.

You also have to consider the nature of the war on the eastern front. It was total war. The red cross on the eastern front was little more than something to aim at and ambulances in the field were armed with machineguns. So even if the ship was white with a red cross, it probably wouldn't have saved it.

I'm afraid to say that you cannot call the submarine captains actions as anything other than his duty. He caught an enemy vessel trying to slip away during the night and he sank it. Any other submarine captain, from any nation in any war would have done the same thing.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #21 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:53pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Woodlouse,

After visiting your website, and reading the account of the sinking, I'm not so sure the sinking was just another act of war as you seemed to suggest.  Here's what I learned from your link:

1) The sub captain committed some act that he was subject to being hanged for, so he reasoned he needed to do some dramatic act to increase his odds of not having to face the gallows.
2) Sub lookouts spot the sillouette of an ocean liner with running lights turned on

Now, considering the Russian sub captain is facing the threat of a court-marshall hanging, it's reasonable to conclude he's very highly motivated to bag some big game to save his neck.  Now, if he did't have the threat of being executed, would he have passed up on the sillouette of the ocean liner with it's running lights on?  We don't know, but it's worth considering.
 

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Reply #22 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:57pm

dcunning30   Offline
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Woodlouse2002 wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:52pm:
In war time a nations ocean liners are quite often seized by the Navy for use as troop transports, hospital ships and sometimes as Light Cruisers. So unless the ship is white, with a big red cross painted all over it then it is a legitimate target.


As you previously stated, how was the sub captain to know the ship was white with red crosses at night?

Quote:
You also have to consider the nature of the war on the eastern front. It was total war. The red cross on the eastern front was little more than something to aim at and ambulances in the field were armed with machineguns. So even if the ship was white with a red cross, it probably wouldn't have saved it.


I'm definately aware of that.  That's why I suggested the possibility of vengence, and then you rebuked me.

Quote:
I'm afraid to say that you cannot call the submarine captains actions as anything other than his duty. He caught an enemy vessel trying to slip away during the night and he sank it. Any other submarine captain, from any nation in any war would have done the same thing.


I'm not in disagreement with that point.  I haven't drawn any conclusions.  I'm just exploring the possibilities based on the what facts we might know.
 

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Reply #23 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 6:25pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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dcunning30 wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:53pm:
Woodlouse,

After visiting your website, and reading the account of the sinking, I'm not so sure the sinking was just another act of war as you seemed to suggest.  Here's what I learned from your link:

1) The sub captain committed some act that he was subject to being hanged for, so he reasoned he needed to do some dramatic act to increase his odds of not having to face the gallows.
2) Sub lookouts spot the sillouette of an ocean liner with running lights turned on

Now, considering the Russian sub captain is facing the threat of a court-marshall hanging, it's reasonable to conclude he's very highly motivated to bag some big game to save his neck.  Now, if he did't have the threat of being executed, would he have passed up on the sillouette of the ocean liner with it's running lights on?  We don't know, but it's worth considering.

Yes the sub captain did feel he needed success to extracate himself from the position he was in back home. That is what took him to the area where he found the ship. I don't think for an instant it affected his decision to attack. As I said, any submarine captain would have made the same choice.

Again I say that because it was built as an ocean liner doesn't mean that during war time it's carrying innocents. This ship had spent most of the war serving as a barracks to the uboat pens in Danzig. During the ships last voyage she was carrying 900 german submariners destined for the new Type 24 Uboats that were waiting at Kiel. That alone is really enough to make the sinking the ship a legitimate act of war. No one knows the numbers of civilians on board the ship at the time of the sinking. We already know that almost 10% of those on board were submariners. But what of the other soldiers, sailors and airmen that were bound to be on board for the general retreat on the Eastern Front.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #24 - Feb 2nd, 2007 at 2:45am

Theis   Offline
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Finally!! Cheesy

A good debate!! Smiley
 

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Reply #25 - Feb 7th, 2007 at 8:25am

beaky   Offline
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Theis wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 4:20am:
P.S: People die every day by thousands. So why make a fuss about a number?


Saying that is a little  like shooting someone in the head at random, shrugging, and saying "he would have died eventually anyway..."


DISCAIMER: I am not making the argument that the sinking of this vessel was an act of vengeance... Wink
 

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Reply #26 - Feb 7th, 2007 at 2:28pm
Heretic   Ex Member

 
beaky wrote on Feb 7th, 2007 at 8:25am:
Saying that is a little  like shooting someone in the head at random, shrugging, and saying "he would have died eventually anyway..."


I got to remember that one. Cheesy
 
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Reply #27 - Feb 7th, 2007 at 2:45pm

Theis   Offline
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beaky wrote on Feb 7th, 2007 at 8:25am:
Theis wrote on Feb 1st, 2007 at 4:20am:
P.S: People die every day by thousands. So why make a fuss about a number?


Saying that is a little  like shooting someone in the head at random, shrugging, and saying "he would have died eventually anyway..."


DISCAIMER: I am not making the argument that the sinking of this vessel was an act of vengeance... Wink

Well.. I didn't say that, that is quoted.. Björn did..
So if you could correct that, please?
I would never write such a thing..  Huh
 

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Reply #28 - Feb 8th, 2007 at 10:11am
Heretic   Ex Member

 
Theis wrote on Feb 7th, 2007 at 2:45pm:
I would never write such a thing..  Huh


Don't worry, that's my job.
 
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