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Commercial Anti-Missile Laser on Fed-Ex Jets (Read 571 times)
Jan 20th, 2007 at 8:27am

Willit Run   Offline
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This is pretty interesting.  Soon they will have the ability to fire back!! Grin

  http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/88994.aspx

Cory
 

...&&
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Reply #1 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 9:04am

Chris_F   Offline
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Willit Run wrote on Jan 20th, 2007 at 8:27am:
This is pretty interesting.  Soon they will have the ability to fire back!! Grin

 http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/88994.aspx

Cory

Yeah, my company is developing something very similar.  Frankly I don't see how they can ever be cost-effective especially considering the low probability of the threat.  If IR missiles were a real threat to commercial aircraft you'd think they'd all be equipped with flares (IIRC aren't a lot of Israeli airliners equipped with flares?)  These jammer things, although valuable on military platforms, just seem like a solution looking for a problem on commercial airliners.

And at least my company is partering with actual airlines.  Does anyone thing a terrorist is really itching to shoot down a cargo plane?

I'm suprised these defense contractors (like my own employer) aren't also trying to push RF countermeasures...   Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #2 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 9:24am

Craig.   Offline
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i'd imagine cargo carriers see big business in the middle east, places like iraq and afghanistan for military contracts. These are places that fed-ex and co would benifit from the technology in the short term i'd imagine.
 
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Reply #3 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 10:49am

Chris_F   Offline
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Craig. wrote on Jan 20th, 2007 at 9:24am:
i'd imagine cargo carriers see big business in the middle east, places like iraq and afghanistan for military contracts. These are places that fed-ex and co would benifit from the technology in the short term i'd imagine.

Still, I think an immediate installation of traditional flare launchers would pay more divedens than a development contract for (maybe) a more capable laser based system in the future.
 
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Reply #4 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 12:28pm

Ivan   Offline
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If a laser was effective against missiles.... every current goalkeeper / phalanx equipped boat would have their lead spewer replaced with one.

Quote:
IIRC aren't a lot of Israeli airliners equipped with flares?

They are planning to do this but AFAIK the only plane that has an operational flare system is the one that is used by the government (which is always a 757 as the system is built for a 757)
They removed it directly after the incident happened as the plane was compromised (only long 757 from Israir)... and there are no pictures of the plane involved fom a few months before the incident until a few months after...

Quote:
i'd imagine cargo carriers see big business in the middle east, places like iraq and afghanistan for military contracts. These are places that fed-ex and co would benifit from the technology in the short term i'd imagine.

For high risk you hire crazy Russians... with An-12s (which are basically milspec and have a far lower exhaust signature).

And even the best flare systems are useless against fairly recent MANPADs anyway... the ones in Kenya were SA-7s that are as likely to go for the sun as for an engine
 

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones),  Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here
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Reply #5 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 12:41pm

C   Offline
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Chris_F wrote on Jan 20th, 2007 at 9:04am:
And at least my company is partering with actual airlines.  Does anyone thing a terrorist is really itching to shoot down a cargo plane?


The Belgian crew of the Airbus hit in Iraq may have other views...
 
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Reply #6 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 1:59pm

flyboy 28   Offline
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Reply #7 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 2:17pm

C   Offline
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flyboy 28 wrote on Jan 20th, 2007 at 1:59pm:


Thankfully with a little luck and skill they were ok...
 
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Reply #8 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 3:04pm

elite marksman   Offline
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From what I gathered from the article, the purpose of the pod isn't to destroy the missile, but to overload its seeker head, causing it to lose lock and veer off target.

This may not be as effective against anti-ship missiles as the majority are radar-guided, while a few, like the Penguin are IR guided. Also, it would be completely useless against an ARM missile should the enemy get one.

Would be nice if CBN hired editors that knew English grammar as well.
 
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Reply #9 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 3:13pm
|Alex|   Ex Member

 
Chris_F wrote on Jan 20th, 2007 at 9:04am:
Willit Run wrote on Jan 20th, 2007 at 8:27am:
This is pretty interesting.  Soon they will have the ability to fire back!! Grin

  http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/88994.aspx

Cory

Yeah, my company is developing something very similar.  Frankly I don't see how they can ever be cost-effective especially considering the low probability of the threat.  If IR missiles were a real threat to commercial aircraft you'd think they'd all be equipped with flares (IIRC aren't a lot of Israeli airliners equipped with flares?)  These jammer things, although valuable on military platforms, just seem like a solution looking for a problem on commercial airliners.

And at least my company is partering with actual airlines.  Does anyone thing a terrorist is really itching to shoot down a cargo plane?

I'm suprised these defense contractors (like my own employer) aren't also trying to push RF countermeasures...   Roll Eyes



But remember, this isn't going to be a fleet wide re-fit. Most likely only 2-3 aircraft will be equipped with such systems, and these aircraft will be the only ones flying to the danger zones.
 
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Reply #10 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 4:15pm

Chris_F   Offline
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elite marksman wrote on Jan 20th, 2007 at 3:04pm:
From what I gathered from the article, the purpose of the pod isn't to destroy the missile, but to overload its seeker head, causing it to lose lock and veer off target.

This may not be as effective against anti-ship missiles as the majority are radar-guided, while a few, like the Penguin are IR guided. Also, it would be completely useless against an ARM missile should the enemy get one.


They'd be totally useless against something like a Penguin as well.  IR guided SAMs guide by spinning.  They don't have an IR camera per-sae, just an IR sensor.  As they spin they "see" the plane when the sensor spins towards it and don't see the plane as the sensor spins away.  They make course corrections to see the plane for longer durations of their spin.  IR jammers use pulsed IR light to make the sensor think it is seeing the plane when it in fact isn't and therefore guide itself away from the plane.

A missile like a Penguin or IR Maveric use an IR camera and image recognition software to see the target.  A pulsed IR light wouldn't confuse such a seeker.

IR jammers currently in use are nothing but big IR flood lamps with a shutter device to make them pulse.  These are limited in that you can only build an IR source of a certain power before you begin melting things.  The quantity of the power relates to the effective heat signature you can protect and this low power limits their use to low IR signature craft like helocopters.  My company once made a giant one to protect a 747 carrying the space shuttle for its appearance in a European air show.  But the thing was enormous, heavy, propane fired, and high drag.  Not quite economical for an airline to operate.

Laser based IR jammers feature a gimbled laser source that can pulse large quantities of IR energy at incoming missiles.  The increased power allows them to be used on larger IR signature aircraft.  
 
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Reply #11 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 5:30pm

vavavoom   Ex Member
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Chris_F wrote on Jan 20th, 2007 at 9:04am:
Willit Run wrote on Jan 20th, 2007 at 8:27am:
This is pretty interesting.  Soon they will have the ability to fire back!! Grin

 http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/88994.aspx

Cory

Yeah, my company is developing something very similar.  Frankly I don't see how they can ever be cost-effective especially considering the low probability of the threat.  If IR missiles were a real threat to commercial aircraft you'd think they'd all be equipped with flares (IIRC aren't a lot of Israeli airliners equipped with flares?)  These jammer things, although valuable on military platforms, just seem like a solution looking for a problem on commercial airliners.

And at least my company is partering with actual airlines.  Does anyone thing a terrorist is really itching to shoot down a cargo plane?

I'm suprised these defense contractors (like my own employer) aren't also trying to push RF countermeasures...   Roll Eyes


may i ask who you work for chris?  the company i work for also develop something very similar.  im pretty sure we make parts for the system in question to.
 
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Reply #12 - Jan 21st, 2007 at 12:35am

flyboy 28   Offline
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Quote:
and these aircraft will be the only ones flying to the danger zones.


Am I really the one that has to do it?

*sigh*


*sings off-key*
"Hiiiiighwayyyy tooo.. the danger zone"

Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #13 - Jan 21st, 2007 at 6:18am

Chris_F   Offline
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Quote:
may i ask who you work for chris?  the company i work for also develop something very similar.  im pretty sure we make parts for the system in question to.

BAE Systems in Nashua
 
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Reply #14 - Jan 21st, 2007 at 10:01am

vavavoom   Ex Member
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Chris_F wrote on Jan 21st, 2007 at 6:18am:
Quote:
may i ask who you work for chris?  the company i work for also develop something very similar.  im pretty sure we make parts for the system in question to.

BAE Systems in Nashua


oh right.  thats who i used to work for.  but we were taken over by finmeccanica a couple of years ago and we now go by the name of Selex SAS.  i believe you guys still own 25% of us, although that may change in the near future.
 
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