Simviation Forum - Confused about Landings

Dec 25^th, 2006 at 3:45am

stefster Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
I Fly Sim!

Posts: 5

Hi All,

Hope you can help.

Im flying a 747 from Auckland to Sydney using IFR. I follow the flight planner NAV/GPS track across the ocean and as i head into sydney get transitioned to Sydney airspace. I get directed into the flight path using Headings and turn off the NAV following the directions from the ATC. As i get near the approach track i tune into the approach ILS using the radio NAV1 (with the frequency i got from the MAP and clicking on the ILS for runway provided by ATC). I change the NAV from GPS to NAV and the 747 turns me into the flight path.

I turn on progressive approach guidance so i can see where i am supposed to be but the problem is that i am always either too high or too fast for the approach and always miss the landing. ATC has told me to stay at 4,000ft until i reach the ILS. I also dont really understand Approach Hold and how this fits into things, what is its purpose? I assume that once i have captured the ILS the AP will guide me onto the runway.. or do i still need to adjust speed and decent rates? What is the best way to do this?

I dont really fancy reading through tones of material to understand this. I figure i have gotten this far already without any docco i should be able to catch this last bit!!

Any help would be much appreciated!

Cheers,
Stephan.

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Reply #1 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 3:57am

eno Offline
Colonel
Why you shouldn't light
your farts!!
Derbyshire UK

Posts: 7802

You need to adjust speed the Approach hold will sort out your rate of descent.

Check out the following link for an ILS tutorial.

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=COF;action=display;num=111...

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Reply #2 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 4:42am

stefster Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
I Fly Sim!

Posts: 5

Excellent tutorial.. will check it out.. BIG THANKS!

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Reply #3 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 7:25am

Brett_Henderson Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

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Posts: 3593

I always suggesst this..

So here goes:

Master landing without an auto-pilot first. You'll learn the whole process that way. Descending, slowing, flap usage... setting up a stable approach by visualizing your approach from way out.

And of course, the best way to do this is in a small, single-engine prop. Then work your way up to bigger, faster, more complex planes, one step at a time. Learn to get where you're going without the GPS too. Then you'll fly the big birds efficiently and realistically.. and it's a very rewarding process.

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Reply #4 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 4:39pm

vololiberista Offline
Colonel
Vieni in Italia

Posts: 1042

Your speed is critical on approach to land. First make sure you are reading IAS indicate air speed.
1. When ATC start your descent from your cruising altitude (you should be looking at your mach meter above 24,000ft) bring your mach speed back to about .64. or the reccomended setting in your manual.
2. Below 24,000ft use IAS and slow down to 300kts.
Why 24,000ft? Because that is the altitude where VNE = MME (This is the altitude one must start slowing the a/c down if for example you have to initiate a crash dive otherwise it will break up. The probable cause of the recent S. American accident!)
3. Below 12,000ft pull back to 250kts. Remember unless ATC specifically lift the speed restriction for your flight you MUST be at 250 kts at or below 10,000ft.
4. About 30nm from your destination back to 210kts.
5. As soon as ATC vector you to establish on the ILS localiser slow to 180kts select slats and first stage flaps. 2nd stage flaps on intercept.
6. No later than 8nm from the threshhold back to 160kts gear down and 2nd or 3rd stage flaps
7. Over the outer marker or 4nm out back to 140kts and full flaps
Always make sure that you capture the glideslope from underneath
Aim for 135kts at screen height
In real life ATC give speed advisories. In the sim this doesn't happen so you have to do it yourself otherwise the sim ATC cannot get you down to establish correctly.
Job done!!
Buon Natale
Vololiberista

Andiamo in Italia&&

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Reply #5 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 5:02pm

Staiduk Offline
Colonel

Posts: 1040

Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 25^th, 2006 at 7:25am:

I always suggesst this..

So here goes:

Master landing without an auto-pilot first. You'll learn the whole process that way. Descending, slowing, flap usage... setting up a stable approach by visualizing your approach from way out.

And of course, the best way to do this is in a small, single-engine prop. Then work your way up to bigger, faster, more complex planes, one step at a time. Learn to get where you're going without the GPS too. Then you'll fly the big birds efficiently and realistically.. and it's a very rewarding process.

I'm gonna back up Brett on this. Stef, landing is meat-and-potatoes to a pilot; it's the fundamental skill we all have to have down cold. Remember the old proverb: 'Taking off is optional. Landing is mandatory'. Practice landing until you can do it in your sleep - not only managing to get it onto the ground without crashing, but a smooth, professional transference from flying to rolling. Practice your circuits with proper heights until they're second nature: 800ft.agl at the start of the downwind, 500 at the base, 300 at the final, learning to take your cues NOT from the instruments, but from the ground and the feel of the aircraft.
Once you have that part down cold (though in 16 yrs. I've yet to master it Grin

) practice instrument approaches - dial your ILS and practice using throttle to control your glideslope and pitch to control your speed. (No, it's not the other way around).

Stef, one of the real joys of FS is the opportunity for non-pilots to enjoy - at a smaller level - the pleasures and responibility of being PIC of virtually anything. It's also an opportunity to see how much work goes into learning how to fly in real life. Volo's post above is a good starting point - but learn how to fly the plane, not the numbers and the numbers will take care of themselves. Wink

Cheers! and have fun. Grin

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Reply #6 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 6:18pm

eno Offline
Colonel
Why you shouldn't light
your farts!!
Derbyshire UK

Posts: 7802

Gentlemen ........ this is a SIM ..... I think the tutorial will be a quick enough reference for this guy.

Gawd some peeps take things so seriously Grin

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Reply #7 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 7:16pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

Gender:
Posts: 3593

You hit it right on the head.. it's a sim (simulator). Trying to simulate reality as much as possible is the whole point. Taking it seriously is just a means to getting better at it.

Sure.. you can play around too, but with all the incredible realism at your disposal... it's hard to take it TOO seriously, 'cause all you do is get better and better and learn and learn. There is an incredible amount of learning to be had here, that transfers itself to real aviating. I'm an instrument and commercial rated pilot and STILL learn stuff from simming.

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Reply #8 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 9:05pm

Staiduk Offline
Colonel

Posts: 1040

Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 25^th, 2006 at 7:16pm:

... it's hard to take it TOO seriously...

Oh, I don't know... printing off the virtual PPL certificate and mounting it beside your university degree might be taking it a bit too seriously.
...putting 'no step' stickers on the arms of your computer chair...
...shouting 'PROP!!' when your wife walks into the den...
...downchecking your 5 yr. old for not doing a runup...
...all indications you might be taking it a wee bit seriously.

Grin

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Reply #9 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 9:14pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

Gender:
Posts: 3593

Ok... lol .. Hard to disagree with those points..

(unless of course some day your son is a student pilot and does NOT overlook that one runup that would have him taxiing back to the hangar when he got a 300rpm drop on the left mag.. and laughs when he tells you, "hahaha dad, I'll never forget")...... oh nevermind.. I think I need a sim break

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Reply #10 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 9:21pm

Staiduk Offline
Colonel

Posts: 1040

...and plenty of egg-nog. Grin

Happy Ho-Ho! Cheesy

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Reply #11 - Dec 26^th, 2006 at 2:15am

vololiberista Offline
Colonel
Vieni in Italia

Posts: 1042

eno wrote on Dec 25^th, 2006 at 6:18pm:

Gentlemen ........ this is a SIM ..... I think the tutorial will be a quick enough reference for this guy.

Gawd some peeps take things so seriously Grin

AND it's the ONLY occasion where after you have smashed the aeroplane and killed all the pax you can go and make a cup of tea and start all over again!!!
Vololiberista

Andiamo in Italia&&

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Reply #12 - Dec 26^th, 2006 at 2:28am

eno Offline
Colonel
Why you shouldn't light
your farts!!
Derbyshire UK

Posts: 7802

vololiberista wrote on Dec 26^th, 2006 at 2:15am:

eno wrote on Dec 25^th, 2006 at 6:18pm:

Gentlemen ........ this is a SIM ..... I think the tutorial will be a quick enough reference for this guy.

Gawd some peeps take things so seriously Grin

AND it's the ONLY occasion where after you have smashed the aeroplane and killed all the pax you can go and make a cup of tea and start all over again!!!
Vololiberista

Precisely.........

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Reply #13 - Dec 29^th, 2006 at 3:23am

bowler_man Offline
Colonel

Posts: 288

how do you turn on progressive approach guidance?

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