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TRIM HELP PLEASE! (Read 4994 times)
Reply #15 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 7:59am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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One more thing. I agree that a set of rudder pedals would be more realistic but whether you use a joystick or yoke is a matter of preference. The joystick is regaining popularity in real life & many modern GA types are fitted with them. Most vintage light aircraft & aerobatic types use joysticks. Modern "fly-by-wire" jet fighters & even large jet airliners like the Airbus range feature controllers not unlike a gaming joystick. I can foresee a time when the only aircraft to use a yoke will be trainers & light twins. This is a complete reversal of how it was only a few years ago.


That's true. Pedals are almost a must, and a yoke doesn't work well when trying to make an Extra 300 do its thing (and it's pretty awkward for a helicopter). Since ideally, you'd have both a stick and a yoke... maybe a stick first, is a good idea.


 
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Reply #16 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 11:42am

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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 13th, 2006 at 7:59am:
Since ideally, you'd have both a stick and a yoke... maybe a stick first, is a good idea.

I think that's debatable Brett. I've flown an aircraft with a yoke only once in all the years been involved with aviation. That was 40 miniutes stick time on the company Piper Aztec when going on holiday to the Channel Islands with my family back in the 1970s. With the type of aircraft I'm interested in both in real life & FS I've never felt the need to get a yoke. A set of pedals to go with my joystick would be more realistic but I'm quite happy with the separate rudder control. This is a simillar setup to my R/C transmitters which makes it useful for that too.

You obviously realise that many of the latest trainers (like your club's new Liberty XL2) have conventional joysticks. This also applies to the Diamond Star & similar types. Some modern light aircraft have a single stick mounted on a central console between the front seats & all popular Cirrus types use an unusual sidestick which reminds me of an umbrella handle sticking out of the the panel. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1131323/M/

I suspect that yokes will eventually become a thing of the past used on those old-fashioned Cessna & Piper trainers. Smiley
 
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Reply #17 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 12:27pm

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You're probably right. Once you get used to a stick, it's really a more intuitive way to guide an aircraft. Not to mention the weight savings and simplicity, not having to get a linkage or cable system up behind a panel (or there-abouts).

The day will probably come when even light trainers have electro-servo control surfaces too, to go with glass panels and joysticks not unlike our gaming sticks will be the norm... economical "fly-by-wire"..

Electro or mechanical though... I don't see rudder pedals going anywhere. A twisting stick (or some other lever) might be OK for cross controlling a model, but I don't think it's a good way to fly a real plane. Flaring, controlling drift and  lining up the plane while landing is just TOO much for one hand to do (or to tie-up both hands, when there's still a throttle to manage)...

The one thing I absolutely hate about that Liberty, is that there are no brakes on the pedals. Your right hand has to operate differential brakes levers, near the throttle. It's  NOT a good design.. IMHO
 
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Reply #18 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 1:03pm

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I didn't intend drifting off-topic but this is a pet subject of mine. Just a couple of points.

Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 13th, 2006 at 12:27pm:
Electro or mechanical though... I don't see rudder pedals going anywhere. A twisting stick (or some other lever) might be OK for cross controlling a model, but I don't think it's a good way to fly a real plane. Flaring, controlling drift and  lining up the plane while landing is just TOO much for one hand to do (or to tie-up both hands, when there's still a throttle to manage)...

I wasn't suggesting that, merely that a 4 axis gaming joystick with separate rudder function suits my purposes on my home PC. My favourite joystick is the Saitek combo type with the rudder controlled by a rocker switch on the separate throttle. This also has those rotary trim controls I mentioned. I don't need a yoke & rudder pedals would be an unnecessary expense.

Quote:
The one thing I absolutely hate about that Liberty, is that there are no brakes on the pedals. Your right hand has to operate differential brakes levers, near the throttle. It's  NOT a good design.. IMHO

Again, that's a matter of preference. I imagine it would take a bit of getting used to but I've read reports that it soon becomes instinctive. I always found toe/heel brakes awkward to use. The best idea I've seen is the automatic differential system used on the Spitfire & many other British military & civil aircraft.
 
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Reply #19 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 1:44pm

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Drifting off topic is when 1/2 the best opinions and data show up... Smiley

And you're right..  Unless you're using the sim to practice things like crosswind landings, rudder-pedals are a luxury not needed to enjoy sim-flight. And you can cross-control without the pedals.. it just doesn't translate to real flying/traing as well..


Having to actually let loose of the throttle to have any kind of differential braking though, in a real plane, goes beyond preference. Sure.. you can get used to it. Toe brakes at worst are awkward.. but you don't surrender control of anything in order to use them. And at taxiing speed (there is no nose-wheel steering on the Liberty) your hand is off the throttle completely in order to have any type of steering. Being able to modulate a widely-opened throttle while differential braking is a common practice in tight places. You can't do that in a Liberty (and still have a free hand).
 
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Reply #20 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 2:42pm

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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 13th, 2006 at 1:44pm:
Drifting off topic is when 1/2 the best opinions and data show up... Smiley

Oh, I agree but many others wouldn't. Wink

Quote:
Having to actually let loose of the throttle to have any kind of differential braking though, in a real plane, goes beyond preference. Sure.. you can get used to it. Toe brakes at worst are awkward.. but you don't surrender control of anything in order to use them. And at taxiing speed (there is no nose-wheel steering on the Liberty) your hand is off the throttle completely in order to have any type of steering. Being able to modulate a widely-opened throttle while differential braking is a common practice in tight places. You can't do that in a Liberty (and still have a free hand).

I can't comment as I've only seen a few small photos of the arrangement. I'll have a closer look at the next opportunity, whenever that might be. However, I found one of the reports I mentioned here. I don't know the author or his credentials.
Quote:
Okay, finger brakes. As I wrote when I flew the airplane a few years back, the Liberty has no toe brakes, only finger brakes, one little lever for the left wheel brake and one little lever for the right wheel brake. At that time I thought the finger brakes an odd choice and I predicted that the airplane would get toe brakes by certification. I was wrong. I was also wrong about the finger brakes. They’re not hard to use once you’ve got the hang of them, which means getting comfortable with operating the throttle with your thumb and the heel of your hand, while you use your index and middle finger to work the differential brakes. The maneuverability of the airplane on the ground is nothing short of phenomenal. You can, and we tried this, taxi straight into a spot between two parked airplanes and turn around 180 degrees in that space. Very cool, but you might want to practice the move first without the other airplanes there.
 
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Reply #21 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 3:12pm

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Yeah.. that's how they teach it. Obviously it's not that big a compromise, or people would be taxiing Libertys into fuel pumps, hangars and other planes, regularly.  But it is a compromise. Just like the brakes themselves (and the castering nose-wheel) are weight/money saving short-cuts.

Here's my input (and a photo) from my experience (I'm sure that guys credentials outrank mine).. When you've got a plane in front of you, and behind you, and you're all taxiing along at a good clip, but way too slow for rudder-steering.. AND there's a stiff crosswind trying to wind-vane you off the taxi-way... Good, positive, independent control of the brakes and the throttle is a good thing, even WITH a steerable nose-wheel. This Liberty set-up isn't a new design or any sort of improvement that some might prefer.. It's a cost-cutting thing. I can use it just fine.. I just think it's a poor design. If you want to talk about awkward.. try 3/4 throttle and hard application of just one brake, while feathering the other ..   Tongue

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Reply #22 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 3:23pm

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Ah, thanks for the photo. Smiley I can now see what you're talking about. I admit it looks a tad fiddly but I would have to try it myself to form a proper opinion.

Strangely enough the Europa Tri-gear that the Liberty is based on apparently has toe brakes. http://www.pilotfriend.com/flight_reports/reports/19e.htm

PS. Robert Goyer, the author of that report I quoted, is Senior Editor of "Flying" magazine. http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?article_id=317&page_number=2&section_id=11
 
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Reply #23 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 3:38pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Yup.. he's got some weight behind his opinions....

Another point to ponder... I won't fly the Liberty from the right seat. I'm right-handed and there's no way my left hand can learn that finger dance. I'm 6'3" with rather large hands and it's all my spindly, favored fingers can do. My left hand gets pushed to its dexterity limit using a television remote control   Embarrassed

Now.. imagine the goofy hardware we'll have to get if this sort of brake arrangement ever catches on..  Cheesy

 
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Reply #24 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 3:52pm

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Thanks for all the help.  I've been using the Logitech Extreme pro 3D.  Could that be making it harder than it is to trim?  Also, do you all reccomend the Saitek X52?
 
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Reply #25 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 4:03pm

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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 13th, 2006 at 3:38pm:
Yup.. he's got some weight behind his opinions....

Another point to ponder... I won't fly the Liberty from the right seat. I'm right-handed and there's no way my left hand can learn that finger dance. I'm 6'3" with rather large hands and it's all my spindly, favored fingers can do. My left hand gets pushed to its dexterity limit using a television remote control   Embarrassed

Ah, that leads on nicely to another of my pet subjects. Left-handers always used to be moaning to me that they couldn't get left-handed gaming joysticks. My argument was that most aircraft are (or used to be) set up to be flown right-handed & I'd never heard it mentioned or considered a problem in real life. This is where the yoke was actually a step forward as it makes it easy to swap hands when necessary.

I'm used to tandem seat aircraft like the Tiger Moth, Chipmunk & Piper Cub with the throttle on the left. so flying from the right seat would suit me a lot better. Not sure how I would use those Legacy brakes though. Roll Eyes

All the different combinations of controls used on various modern aircraft will require pilots to be ambi-dextrous. For example: the Captain of an Airbus fitted with sidesticks has no choice but to control the aircraft with his left hand.

Quote:
Now.. imagine the goofy hardware we'll have to get if this sort of brake arrangement ever catches on..  Cheesy

In actual fact I was thinking it wouldn't be a great deal different to the rudder control on my Saitek throttle. This is actually mounted on the throttle lever which makes it easy to use & very precise.
 
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Reply #26 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 4:33pm

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bok269 wrote on Dec 13th, 2006 at 3:52pm:
Thanks for all the help.  I've been using the Logitech Extreme pro 3D.  Could that be making it harder than it is to trim?  Also, do you all reccomend the Saitek X52?

Sorry, I got carried away & missed this. Embarrassed

I've seen some good reports on the X52 & it's similar to my old faithful X36 combo. I assume it still has those assignable rotary controls I mentioned. I would say go for it if you can afford it.

PS. Review on the X52 HERE
I see they reverted to a twistgrip rudder control instead of the switch on the X36. That seems a shame.
 
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Reply #27 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 4:42pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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I've loads of right seat time and actually prefer my right hand on a yoke (or stick) and left hand on the throttle (it's those dirn, goofy brakes)..

As far as Airbuses go.. Left hand on the control (stick or yoke) and right hand on the throttle is the norm.. It's the poor co-pilot that has to adjust, like just about any right-seat flying..

Now.. back to bok269...  I believe either of those sticks use a rocker-switch for trim.. so there wouldn't be much difference. It's been so long since I've used a stick though, that I'm not qualified to rate them against each other.
 
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Reply #28 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 4:47pm

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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 13th, 2006 at 4:42pm:
Now.. back to bok269...  I believe either of those sticks use a rocker-switch for trim.. so there wouldn't be much difference. It's been so long since I've used a stick though, that I'm not qualified to rate them against each other.

The X52 has a total of 3 rotary controls that would be perfect for trim in all three axes.
 
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Reply #29 - Dec 13th, 2006 at 5:17pm

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Hagar wrote on Dec 13th, 2006 at 5:21am:
One more thing. I agree that a set of rudder pedals would be more realistic but whether you use a joystick or yoke is a matter of preference. The joystick is regaining popularity in real life & many modern GA types are fitted with them. Most vintage light aircraft & aerobatic types use joysticks. Modern "fly-by-wire" jet fighters & even large jet airliners like the Airbus range feature controllers not unlike a gaming joystick. I can foresee a time when the only aircraft to use a yoke will be trainers & light twins. This is a complete reversal of how it was only a few years ago.



I can see a situation where the yoke becomes a thing of the past, as it clutter up the cockpits. For a few examples, Airbus have used sidesticks for many years, the C-17 uses a central stick, and many light aircraft (particularly of European origin) are utilising sidesticks, normal control columns or centre (shared) sticks. This is somewhat unfortunate as often they are accompanied by electric trims, which by their digital "blipping" nature, are almost impossible to trim perfectly, compared to a good old trim wheel...

[and then I read page 2 of the thread] Grin
 
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