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F-16 Down over Iraq! (Read 6184 times)
Reply #15 - Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:31pm

dcunning30   Offline
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expat wrote on Dec 20th, 2006 at 12:40pm:
Chris_F wrote on Dec 20th, 2006 at 10:50am:
How insanely counter-productive is that!  (with regard to the horrorfying video mentioned, which I have not and won't see).  Here's the message the terrorists are sending:  "What ever you do, DO NOT SURRENDER.  The only thing you can do to avoid having your head carved like a turkey is to fight to the death.  Don't ever give up because your fate is sealed.  So kill as many of us as you can and maybe you'll survive."

Geez.  I know these guys are a bit on the cracked side but that's rediculous.  I understand (though obviously don't agree with) using terror to achieve political ends.  The whole "stop supporting Isreal or we'll crash more planes in to your buildings" thing.  But torturing soldiers who surrender doesn't send this message at all.  All it says is that a soldier must never surrender, he must fight until dead.  The Japanese used the same tactic during WWII.

There's a certain wisdom in treating surrendered combatants humanely.  The army you fight will know that if they surrender they will be protected.  Heck, treat 'em like kings!  Thank them for surrendering.  Perhaps the word will get out and you'll have more surrendering.  Kinda like the first Gulf war.  Do you think there would be mass surrenders if the Allied forces were torturing everyone who surrendered?  No, they'd fight until dead.  And the war would have been longer and bloodier.

Sorry for straying off topic...



The problem is that terrorism works. At the end of the day all "conflicts" involving terrorists have to a small extent ended up with the government/leaders appeasing them to a certain extent to get an end to the conflict.


Matt


Terrorism only works when societies lack sufficient balls to make the decision to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.
 
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Reply #16 - Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:40pm

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In Iraq, there are several players that comprise what we call the "insurgency"  There's the ex-Ba'thists, aligned with foreigners loyal to Al Qaeda on one side.  These are pretty much the Sunnis.  Then there's the Iranian backed Shi'ites on the other side.  They are both fighting the Coalition forces, and fighting each other.  Al Qaeda and Iran both benefit from instability in Iraq.  So each are doing their level best to see to it that's what occurs in Iraq.  It is misleading to suggest that "secret-service" types are running the show.  They may be involved, but they are merely players in the bloodletting.
 
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Reply #17 - Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:48pm

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Speaking of foreigners, I just finished a book on the battle of Fallujah.  The Marines encountered evdicence of foreign fighters from 19 different countries as well as numerous torture rooms.
 
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Reply #18 - Dec 20th, 2006 at 5:35pm

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dcunning30 wrote on Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:40pm:
In Iraq, there are several players that comprise what we call the "insurgency"  There's the ex-Ba'thists, aligned with foreigners loyal to Al Qaeda on one side.  These are pretty much the Sunnis.  Then there's the Iranian backed Shi'ites on the other side.  They are both fighting the Coalition forces, and fighting each other.  Al Qaeda and Iran both benefit from instability in Iraq.  So each are doing their level best to see to it that's what occurs in Iraq.  It is misleading to suggest that "secret-service" types are running the show.  They may be involved, but they are merely players in the bloodletting.

Secret service = Ba'athists... and the main backing force of the sunni insurgency because of their level of organisation... most of the structure is still intact even after the rise in revenge killings just after the fall of the regime. These guys have fast access to large sums of money (maybe more than Al Qaeda has directly available in the area)
Shias have a far lower level of organisation and are just as likely to go after each other as that they are fighting sunnis or any foreign force.

You tempt me to list ALL the major factions and their supporters, so here it comes
  • Turkmens (north): Seem to be supported by Turkey but only when they need them... usually to make trouble with Barzani (Kurds) as they live in the same area.
  • Kurds (north): De-facto independent state. Gets money from expats and smuggling. In theory they are protected by the US and Iraqi forces, but in reality they decide if they allow foreign (US and Iraqi) troops in any of the areas under their control.
  • Non-aligned Sunni arabs (western desert): Few nomadic tribes, not too involved in the fighting. Nothing interesting to fight about there anyway.
  • Ba'athist Sunni arabs (center): Can be split in two groups (liberals and conservatives) but generally getting supported by Al Qaeda. Liberals probably having more former party officials and conservatives more Al Qaeda. Financially well equipped (access to Al Qaeda and a large part of the National Bank funds which was stolen in 2003)
  • Shia arabs (south): NOT supported by Iran due to history (1985-1988 war), but might get money by making strategic alliances with...
  • Shia arabic speaking Iranians (south): only group officially being supported by Iran
    And then there are the other groups that arent directly invovled; assyrians, christians, yazidis and a few other ones... most of them either left the country or moved to the north

    And the major factors:
    North and south have oil, center and west have no natural resources of importance, thats the main reason why they keep fighting each other.
    Arabs hate Iranians and the other way around... especially in Iraq. For most Ba'athists being shia or kurd counts as being 'iranian' too.
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    Reply #19 - Dec 20th, 2006 at 6:01pm

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    dcunning30 wrote on Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:31pm:
    Terrorism only works when societies lack sufficient balls to make the decision to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.

    It's all very well if the Terrorists are a six man cause all barricaded into the same building. However, when the terrorists have the support of a nation, or a religion, then to stamp them out would mean you'd have to be far more ruthless than just carving the occasional prisoners head off. On a small scale not negotiating with terrorists works. On a large scale you have to be prepared to negotiate or watch the deaths of millions in wars that cannot be won.
     
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    Reply #20 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 10:52am

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    Ivan wrote on Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:09pm:
    In the current situation the whole prisoner treatment thing isnt working anymore... in their thoughts, surrendering equals getting tainted... which leads to getting killed by their own guys because they departed their faith (or being forced to see them kill your family first and then you afterwards).

    Agreed.  Certainly that's nothing new.  The Russians used to shoot their own troops who surrendered during the Battle of Stalingrad.  The Japanese executed their own troops who showed signs of weakness during WWII.  In fact, the Japanese mentality towards surrender is almost exactly the same as that being expressed above.  Surrender shamed you AND your family and was not allowed.  This extended to their attitudes towards their POWs (US forces and those they faced in Korea, Indo-china, etc).  Beheading their POWs was thought to be an act of kindness (better than being forced to return to their families in shame) and far more often their POWs were tortured to death.  Sounds familiar...
     
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    Reply #21 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 10:57am

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    I don't think the Japanise beheaded many allied POWs. They didn't think twice about working, or beating them to death though.
     
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    Reply #22 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 12:47pm

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    Woodlouse2002 wrote on Dec 21st, 2006 at 10:57am:
    I don't think the Japanise beheaded many allied POWs. They didn't think twice about working, or beating them to death though.

    You're right, there weren't many beheadings.  I think they viewed it as too much of an honor to bestow on their POWs.  Yeah, the more common fate was to be worked or beaten to death.  Since we're in to gruesome stuff here (and to illustrate the horrors of war) in Indonesia the Japanese troops were left to starve when their home country decided conquoring Indonesia wasn't worth the effort.  The stranded Japanese troops turned canibal.  Unfortunately meat on dead animals rotted quickly in the jungle, and there weren't many animals around.  So POWs were kept alive as long as possible, sometimes weeks.  That's all I'll say...
     
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    Reply #23 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 3:01pm

    Ivan   Offline
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    Now we arrived at ww2 Japan... What they did in China (which is usually ignored) still has a majopr influence on regional relations... They did bioweapon experiments on POW camps...
     
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    Reply #24 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 4:14pm

    dcunning30   Offline
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    Ivan,  I'm aware of those factions.  However, that does not speak to the difference of our opinions.  Agreed the Ba'thists have the orgizational skills and the financing.  However, their involvement in the violence has waned in comparison to Al Qaeda and alligned foreign fighters.  After it has become fairly clear Saddam wasn't coming back, the Ba'athists began to come to the recognition that they were Iraqis killing their own countrymen.  The motivationt that Saddam provided them to kill their countrymen no longer exists.  If you're of the opinion that the main Sunni violence comes from the Ba'thists, then what is their motivation.  Ba'thists are a political party, there's no religious motivation behind that.  The main Sunni organized campaign of violence can be attributed to Al Qaeda.  During the battle of Fallujah, the fighters that were encountered came fom 19 different countries.  Surely, they weren't 19 different branches of the Ba'thists movement.  They were all motivated by jihad.
     
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    Reply #25 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 4:17pm

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    dcunning30 wrote on Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:31pm:
    Terrorism only works when societies lack sufficient balls to make the decision to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.



    Really? Maybe you could have been of use to tell the world how to solved the problem of the Northern Ireland problem...
     
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    Reply #26 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 4:24pm

    dcunning30   Offline
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    Beheadings by the Japanese were more numerous that what is being suggested here.  The militerists in Japan saw themselves as the militerist and spiritual descendants of the samurai, of which the sword was an intergral weapon.  In fact, the sword defined the samurai, it took on a somewhat spiritual meaning to the warrior.  That is why all Japanese officers carries swords, and even fighter pilots sometimes carried the sword in the cockpit with him, not as a weapon if he should get shot down, but it was a symbol of the samurai spirit.

    Now, it was a matter of honor and was quite natural for a Japanese officer to behead an enemy.  In fact, during the Rape of Nanking, Japanese soldiers had killing contests: who could behead the most Chinese prisoners in a given amount of time.  I've read personal accounts of Japanese officers becoming addicted to beheading captives.  One officer confessed it got so bad for him that he would secretly size-up the necks of people he encountered.
     
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    Reply #27 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 4:29pm

    dcunning30   Offline
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    Charlie wrote on Dec 21st, 2006 at 4:17pm:
    dcunning30 wrote on Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:31pm:
    Terrorism only works when societies lack sufficient balls to make the decision to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.



    Really? Maybe you could have been of use to tell the world how to solved the problem of the Northern Ireland problem...



    Isn't it solved?
     
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    Reply #28 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 5:02pm

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    dcunning30 wrote on Dec 21st, 2006 at 4:29pm:
    Isn't it solved?


    It can never be "solved"...
     
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    Reply #29 - Dec 21st, 2006 at 5:36pm

    Woodlouse2002   Offline
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    dcunning30 wrote on Dec 21st, 2006 at 4:29pm:
    Charlie wrote on Dec 21st, 2006 at 4:17pm:
    dcunning30 wrote on Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:31pm:
    Terrorism only works when societies lack sufficient balls to make the decision to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.



    Really? Maybe you could have been of use to tell the world how to solved the problem of the Northern Ireland problem...



    Isn't it solved?

    To a certain extent. No ones killing eachother any more. We didn't get to this stage though by "stamping it out".
     
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