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A Cunning Plan for MSFS development (Read 1070 times)
Nov 2nd, 2006 at 11:49am

krigl   Offline
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Okay guys, I don't usually have time to post outside the screenshot forums, sorry, and I expect that and the length of this post is going to be why not many are going to reply to this  Smiley but, anyway, just for once, after reading widely on the FSX forum, here's my contribution to the debate around FSX. It’s not a moan, it’s a suggestion. I love MSFS and am grateful to the hard-working and creative developers, and look forward to one day running FSX….. but I think I have a point to make which is a little different from, though also similar to, those already made.

I'm going to compare FS development to a normal game's development.

My point in short:

People say developing a new FS is different – a unique case. But why should this be so. Is it logical or beneficial to the game, the customers, or MS? I think not.

My point, in long:

This is how, I have noticed, most cutting-edge software companies seem to design most normal games.

1. They project what high end cards will be capable of by the time when they expect to finish the game.
2. They make a game which will play well on those future high end cards, and okay to poor on today's high end.
3. They release it and those rich enough to have the best hardware get the most out of it, others can at least play it.
4. A while later, they release a datadisk with extra content, maybe improved interface, features, graphics,  that may once again push the envelope for the new high end. They make money, users are happy.
5. If the game is really good and also moddable, it can have a very long shelf-life without using distant-future technology - The Elder Scrolls Morrowind for example.
6. Later, they release the games successor, once again pushing the envelope.

*Of course, many successful games don’t push the envelope spectacularly and are able to work on many people’s machines on release.

This is what MS seem to do with FS and particularly FSX.
1. Look much further into the future than normal software developers do - in the case of FSX, they aimed at a technology still in development over an uncertain timescale, thus causing a 3 year gap between sim releases and basically losing money they could have made by releasing an FS9 upgrade or at least a large data-disk in mid-2005.

(This data-disk/game could have contained – more high detailed regions for FS9 – ‚payware-quality‘ planes (if freeware and payware developers can do it for FS9, why wait for FSX) airports and cockpits – better textures and denser autogen – all the improvements serious sim pilots wanted, e.g. to ATC, the weather, flight models – more detailed mesh in more areas etc etc. None of this would need a big upgrade to the engine or technology as far as humble I can see)

2. Prepare a game aimed at this still developing technology, which causes complications while making the sim – bugs and other problems, no doubt some false starts in development with dual-core, dx10 optimisation etc – which prevents them from focusing on the things people wanted changing or on optimising textures, physics and other things that would make it run smoother.

Of course, they improve the graphics and put in some great new features along with a ton of stuff that was possible a year ago and could have been in a datadisk. This is necessary to make people want it even though many know from experience that it’s going to have a ton of problems and not run perfectly until near the time the next sim comes out, if then.

3. Release it – and watch people struggle with it, wondering why it doesn’t run completely well even on their super-machine that totally pwns the whole world. They observe all the complaints, many of them being the same as the complaints made about the previous sim on it’s release – bugs, errors, poor optimisation, stuttering even on high end machines.

In the case of FSX, they actually advertise it widely, causing many new people to buy it blissfully unaware of what a nightmare it’s going to be, because all the other new games run well on their rigs, or at least run.

4. Members of the team are either sent to different sites and forums, or simply go voluntarily because they are involved in the development and know how hard it was and care about the product (this is more likely to be the case, I believe!), and mollify the critics and dampen down the anger by admitting that mistakes were made, corners cut, they tried to do too much, the money-men pushed for an early release etc. These arguements are all made in genuine good faith, I think - must be terrible to see everyone laying into their work....

Their key argument, though, is that the sim is made this way to have a long shelf life and therefore we should expect it to run badly. This is what I take issue with because...

...what they don’t say is that just when you finally have a rig capable of running it at its best, they will release a new sim, thus making it hard for many normal mortals (who find it difficult to resist the need to have the newest and best) to enjoy using the ‘old, tired’ sim they have any more… and ‘upgrade’ to the new improved version.

(This concept of a 'long shelf life' differs from that of other quality games, where people continue playing them long after they run easily on their computer, because the technology is not so far ahead. The actual length of this sim's 'life' is the same as that of any other quality, moddable game for most people, because they upgrade to the newest sim when they have just managed to cope with the old one. The difference is in the quality of the experience, not the length of the shelf life.

Some people don't upgrade of course, but I doubt if that is really part of MS's policy...)

Of course, many people are happy with it, because they expect it to run poorly and simply love the new features, and some enjoy bragging that they can run it well Wink but there are not nearly as many happy people are as there could be. And so the cycle of frustration and griping continues.

5. Hope things calm down over time and as hardware improves and cheapens. Watch as freeware and payware developers find ways to deal with all the problems in the game. In the case of FS9, finally release a patch that changes very little.

Don’t release a datadisk with improvements, because that would please people and make money. In the case of FSX, promise patches which will totally upgrade the sim, but will almost certainly (I suspect) just focus on upgrading it to Vista and DX10 compatibility, a huge job in itself, and solve few of the other problems, let alone deal with the core issues of real simmers.

6. Start looking at new future technology which is unproven and uncertain, and begin to aim the new sim at that. Probably. Well, we’re all hoping all the complaining and expressions of frustration and anger aren’t going to put them off developing FS11, aren’t we? : )

Why does it have to be this way? If they followed a normal pattern:

-      they would release things more people could play and enjoy on release – fewer complaints
-      developing the sim would be easier and they would be able to focus on bugs and optimisation and new features that make use of existing or near-term technology
-      they would make more money by releasing a full sim every 2 years and a datadisk in between
-      some people would complain there wasn’t much new in the new sims… but generally, a decent helping of new, quality features and content, with some manageable advancement in the technology used and hardware needed would please most simmers, who are often hungry for more…me included : )

Well, this is my opinion and contribution to the debate. I don’t have time to participate in an argument but please feel free to agree or disagree….

Regards

Krigl
 

If you're bored of an evening - and you'll have to be - you can check out my screenshot gallery: Kriglsflightsimscreens...HERE

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Reply #1 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 1:09pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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What you're saying is logical an sensible.. 

You're just making more out of this than it warrants (as are all the moaning threads).

This big technology gap that everyone keeps pointing to, doesn't exist. The dollar gap exists.. as in.. this is definately the most expensive upgrade simmers have had to make.. and I can relate. But it's by no means this horrible oversight and utter neglect of loyal customers by Microsoft that one would believe reading some of these threads.

This is a $70 piece of software that we'll all be enjoyng for probably the better part of three years. If you've got a reasonably up to date computer (I'll use mine for example:  Athlon64 3700, eVga7800GT256, 1GB CorsairXMS3200)(And BTW.. those components AND a new m-board to mount them on, can be bought at Newegg, right now for LESS than $600US) You can get a WHOLE new experience.. and MANY more new ones to come with upgrades and software releases(Vista DX10)..

Seems to me that no plan or release date is gonna be perfect or please everyone..  This one seems pretty good though.. for most people right now.. and offers the most for growing into, as your budget and willingness allow.

I can't imagine much more of an upgrade than buying a new M-board, CPU, RAM and V-card... and I just listed an example of how it can be done for under $600 to make a computer run FSX reasonably well. And a lot of people will need even less of an upgrade than that. Then... if it's worth it to you.. you can upgrade accordingly and when it fits your budget.. Even if you stick with just the upgrade I've listed.. you WILL get a whole new simming experience...for many years..

In the mean time.. if you're willing and able to spend lotsa a money.. you can take this new experience even further, right now.. today.. no waiting..

There's now way to make everyone happy, but I honestly believe that this whole FSX thing is the right technology, at the right time.
 
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Reply #2 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 1:22pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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And you know what's really neat ?

If you did have more money than sense and did go out and blow $3000 to be able to see the full potential in FSX... You won't be hitting a wall.. A year from now(or less) you'll be able to see FSX push the bar even higher..

 
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Reply #3 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 1:59pm

krigl   Offline
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I know where you're coming from Brett, but my key gripe is: with other 'long shelf-life, next-gen games' you can upgrade to the required level in a year and then spend 2 more years running it at full quality and enjoying all the mods without it being spoiled by hardware inadequacies.

We'd be enjoying it more if it were better tuned and closer to today's technological capabilites.

With FS9, FSX too I guess, you buy the game and for 3 years you gradually upgrade (unless you're loaded with disposable cash and/or are single and carefree) until it runs perfectly - and then MS releases a new-and-improved version which you, of course (being human) immediately want, and once again plunge into a world of stutters, lags, slider-balancing and tweaks for 3 years instead of enjoying what you've got already.

For many people there is no significant period where they can enjoy the sim at maximum quality, because they are already being tantalised by something new, which is full of bugs and doesn't run at max on the best machines partially because it's badly optimised. But they want it for the new features and possiblities, because other people have got it, because they have a cool rig in their sig etc...

That's what I'm not happy with - they should look to shorter term technology and release datadisks etc like other developers, and they would have a better product, more money and more satisfied customers...

They would have done well to release a fat datadisk in early 2005, and plough the money into making a well-optimised, more detailed FSX for earlier this year, with better mesh, cockpits etc and aimed at DX9c with improved light bloom and other fancy graphics (I love how FSX looks nowhere near as good as other current games - for example, reflective water is reflective water, whether it's in the limited area of an FPS shooter or the limited area visible from your plane flying low and slow - and it is a limited area, because it's blurred to hell within a short distance from the plane) and missions, as well as the things the serious simmer wants...and then release an FSX datadisk late 2007 with significantly more of the same, and FS11 with DX10 on board in 2008.

Why they don't do this is beyond my humble powers.

Krigl
 

If you're bored of an evening - and you'll have to be - you can check out my screenshot gallery: Kriglsflightsimscreens...HERE

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Reply #4 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 2:17pm

krigl   Offline
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About the 'easy upgrade', Brett.

For me to upgrade to FSX my game plan is
1. Butter up my wife.
2. Get a better graphics card (MSI NX7900GTO T2D512E is what I'm planning - is it okay?)
3. Get a new 500w Enermax power pack because my Chieftec 400w doesn't cut it.
These are my Xmas presents Smiley
4. Wait till my wife calms down
8 months later, in August, for my birthday, providing I get tons of bonuses and am a good husband:
5. Upgrade from an Athlon 3200+ to a dual or quad core monster.
6. Buy a cooling thingy for my processer so it doesn't melt.
7. Buy a new motherboard because my current one doesn't support multi-core.
8. Buy 2gb of new and better RAM because the motherboard will not support crappy DDR 400 or whatever I've got.

As I live in the Czech Republic, (and many simmers also live in less wealthy parts of the world), these upgrades are going to cost me about 2 monthly salaries. That's one sixth of the total amount of money the average Czech makes in a whole year. I can only afford it because I get massive bonuses from my great boss.
And many people have systems like thie one I'm aiming for now and are complaining about stuttering etc.

And the funny thing is, my graphics card, which I'm buying now because my current one is faulty and won't let me play Oblivion, won't be DX10 compatible.  And I will have to buy Vista, of course. Oh yes - I'll have to buy the sim too....I will buy it, in August, but will I be getting a great playing experience? No. No DX10, no Vista. Oblivion - my dream game - will be beautiful, almost every game existing or in development that I've read about should run on it like a dream. But FSX - no. I'll be able to upgrade to Vista and DX10 at Xmas 2007, but willing? No. I think FS9 is already wonderful, and FSX with add-ons will be perfect. I expect to spend my time flying in FSX and playing all the hundreds of games released since 2000 or so that I've neglected. If I ever play FSX at full detail, or FS11 I suspect it will be on a console. Probably the new X-Box Roll Eyes Cheesy

So... upgrading to FSX is cheap? Er, no. For the well off, for kids with wealthy parents maybe, but not all have even 600 dollars of disposable cash... but you are a real life pilot, Brett, right? Anyone who can afford to fly even occasionally probably has a different view of money and spending priorities to a humble English teacher in central Europe  Cheesy

I know it sounds like I'm moaning, but I don't feel that way. I just think it would benifit everyone, including MS, if MS did things a bit differently....

 

If you're bored of an evening - and you'll have to be - you can check out my screenshot gallery: Kriglsflightsimscreens...HERE

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Reply #5 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 2:19pm

Hagar   Offline
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I've always thought the biggest mistake with the MSFS series has been lack of continuity. If I understand it correctly the development team is completely disbanded on completion of each version & a new one is brought in for the next one. It's fine to have a few fresh faces with fresh ideas but it seems to me that changing the whole team is like reinventing the wheel.

*This is probably caused by them taking so much flak for their efforts whether justified or not.

PS. This is the impression I've always had. If I'm wrong I'll be happy to be corrected.
 

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Reply #6 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 2:36pm

krigl   Offline
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Quote:
I've always thought the biggest mistake with the MSFS series has been lack of continuity. If I understand it correctly the development team is completely disbanded on completion of each version & a new one is brought in for the next one. It's fine to have a few fresh faces with fresh ideas but it seems to me that changing the whole team is like reinventing the wheel.

*This is probably caused by them taking so much flak for their efforts whether justified or not.

PS. This is the impression I've always had. If I'm wrong I'll be happy to be corrected.


That could be a reason for some of the troubles.... I suspect the coding in FS is less than logical, having developed convolutedly from the seed of FS95 or before and after finally learning roughly how the game is put together, they set about producing a new, improved sim by tinkering, compounding existing problems, creating new bugs and holes... as well as improving and adding to the sim.

A bit like an old Vietnam-era Skyraider, modified so many times that no-one is sure what's in it any more - it can fly faster than before and use new weapons but if something goes wrong it's often hard to find what to fix.

Okay, it was a weak metaphor. Cheesy
 

If you're bored of an evening - and you'll have to be - you can check out my screenshot gallery: Kriglsflightsimscreens...HERE

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Reply #7 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 2:38pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Yeah.. marketing is a curious thing. Whether it be cars, or TVs or computers or computer software. The whole point to marketing is to get you to part with more of your money than you need to; more often than you should  Tongue

Can you imagine the poop Microsoft would have thrown at them if.. after three long years.. FSX wasn't something spectacularly better (and it is) ?  Or... imagine hardware companies that didn't make available the goodies needed to keep pushing the limit on a timely and regular basis ? They'd be shunned out of business. AND.. on top of that.. the reason the hardware I listed for upgrading is $600 instead of $1200 (or $2400 when it first hit the market).. is because the envelope keeps getting pushed.

This is just the nature of the beast. As we sit all aggravated that we can't have the latest/greatest as soon as it's out on the market; is the same force that has made all this new and wonderful stuff to begin with.

Microsoft, Asus, Athlon, Intel and all these other companies aren't gonna feel a sudden wave of noble altruism that will make them say, "Wait a minute.. All we're doing is upsetting people. Let's slow down and not release new stuff until 90% of the customers feel they've gotten their money's worth.. or can afford to catch up".  And we should be glad.. Because if that ever happened.. we'd all suffer.. we'd all end up getting less technology for our money..  Even those who wait.
 
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Reply #8 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 2:45pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
but you are a real life pilot, Brett, right? Anyone who can afford to fly even occasionally probably has a different view of money and spending priorities to a humble English teacher in central Europe   



Ummmm yeah.. Trust me.. I have to put a whole different thought process into real flying. I planned for it years in advance and it's an expenditure in my life.. much akin to what raisng a child is to others (I'm childless).. It's on a whole different plane (no pun intended) than passing time on a computer...  One weekend flying trip can equal a computer ready to run FSXIII (and then some)...
 
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Reply #9 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 2:56pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
Okay, it was a weak metaphor. 


That was a GREAT mataphor (I'm still laughing) (and that's priceless)
 
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Reply #10 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 3:05pm

krigl   Offline
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Quote:
Can you imagine the poop Microsoft would have thrown at them if.. after three long years.. FSX wasn't something spectacularly better (and it is) ?  

We should be glad.. Because if that ever happened.. we'd all suffer.. we'd all end up getting less techology for our money..  Even those who wait.


This is my point again. They should release datadisks and new games after less time, yet less advanced, and people won't have such high expectations, expectations partly created by Microsoft themselves. EA release their sports games every year, with a few improvements, and just rake in the cash, so it isn't exactly a poor business model. And I can't believe simmers wouldn't be pleased by regular updates instead of waiting 3 years for something buggy and 'way ahead of its time' ie, partially, badly made.

And if the 'technology race' happened at a slower speed, we'd all have more money to spend on up-grades anyway, as we'd need to do it less often, like console owners... we don't NEED more realistic, complex and beautiful graphics (the main draw of FSX I think) for a happy and fulfilling life - we only need them because we are provoked into needing them.

If MS spent more time perfecting existing/new technologies and software instead of always pushing the envelope, people would be a lot happier with them as a company as their products would be better, and a lot less worked up about having to upgrade all the time. They could make their money from producing more computer and console games, instead of bullying people into upgrading to new operating systems by withdrawing support for the old ones, for example.

And if games (by all makers) were of higher quality, OSs less buggy, and MS more honest with their marketing and less of a greedy company, charging less for better products, they would have a better moral standpoint in their fight against piracy and more otherwise honest people would fork out the dough for original products instead of criminalising themselves by using pirated software - ... again, increasing profits or at least shifting more product. Instead they bother honest users with stricter and more inconvenient to work with measures against piracy, and insert spying programmes into their software. These are worked around anyway by pirates, to meet the demand from people who just don't have the money to keep buying the latest thing they are persuaded to need... It's like a slowly contracting spiral, and one day either their monopoly will be broken by somebody more competent and in tune with humanity... or we will be living in a virtual dictatorship, surrendered to voluntarily by our endless appetite for glittering graphics and the newest things...

I think I got a bit carried away, but I had it on my mind so....well, anyway Smiley

Hagar summarises it best in his sig:

The only thing you make in a hurry is a mistake.

Cheers - off home to supper now. What a lot of work I got done this afternoon  Roll Eyes

Krigl
 

If you're bored of an evening - and you'll have to be - you can check out my screenshot gallery: Kriglsflightsimscreens...HERE

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Reply #11 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 3:07pm

krigl   Offline
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Quote:
That was a GREAT mataphor (I'm still laughing) (and that's priceless)


I'm glad you liked it!!

Thanks to you (and Hagar) for participating in my thread, I was worried that nobody would bother due to the length. I have to go home now though, will look in tomorrow if time.

Best regards

Krigl
 

If you're bored of an evening - and you'll have to be - you can check out my screenshot gallery: Kriglsflightsimscreens...HERE

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Reply #12 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 3:47pm

Joe_D   Offline
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Quote:
I've always thought the biggest mistake with the MSFS series has been lack of continuity. If I understand it correctly the development team is completely disbanded on completion of each version & a new one is brought in for the next one. It's fine to have a few fresh faces with fresh ideas but it seems to me that changing the whole team is like reinventing the wheel.

*This is probably caused by them taking so much flak for their efforts whether justified or not.

PS. This is the impression I've always had. If I'm wrong I'll be happy to be corrected.


Good point.

I've said on other posts that it seems that ACES appears overworked/overwhelmed at times.

« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:20pm by Joe_D »  

Home airports are KMGJ and KSWF in Orange County, NY&&Stop by and say hello. Smiley
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Reply #13 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 6:18pm

vololiberista   Offline
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In my opinion M(qualcosa)s  have overworked the graphics in FSX. in otherwords other areas of the sim were neglected. Long before the projected release of Vista and DX10 they knew that both would not be released for a considerable time.
I agree with all of those ho have said that FSX was released too early.  The overwhelming majority do not have the readies to rush out and buy the sim as soon as it is released.  We all have to spend money on gradual upgrades.
It really would have been much better for M(qualcosa)s to have withheld release until Vista was ready. Vista went pearshaped right at the beginning of this year. They just seem to want to make money in the sort term rather than lots of money in the long term.
And there are other issues surrounding Vista. That of third party access to its code. If this issue isn't resolved we won't see it in Europe AT ALL!!!!
Buonanotte
Vololiberista


 

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Reply #14 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 6:38pm

Bubblehead   Offline
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Haven't you seen the writing on the wall? This flight simulation software is big business. Bill Gates could care less about our petty woes regarding his FSX. In the first place there is not much competition against MS in the flight simulation area. I believe that MS intended all along to design FSX so demanding so that it will force its customers to buy their new generation OS and other hardware if they want to enjoy the game. I wouldn't get it past MS that they have business interests with other peripherals associated with PCs such as videos, audios, etc. The bottom line is that sooner or later we'll land up upgrading our PCs and buying the new Vista and DX among other things if we want to run FSX. My opinion only.

Bubblehead
 
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