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economics (Read 4265 times)
Oct 30th, 2006 at 1:27pm

SimFly   Offline
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once upon a time i read an article on the economics of the learjet, where it was explained with a bunch of diagrams that the most economic speed and altitude is 220 knots at the altitude where it equals .75 mach, which is around 45'000 feet, depending on air temp. (the figures might be off a little, i'm going from memory here)
a comment that this is acurately depicted in FS2000 got me a hit on google while looking for something else.

does anyone know what the most economic speed/altitude for the FS stock planes are, or failing that, how it can be measured other than doing a lot of flights and compare the actual burned up fuel afterwards?

and for flight planning, how do i calculate the most economic altitude and the resulting speed (indicated, true, over ground) for a given flight, and what parameters do i have to have to start this calculation in the first place?
 
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Reply #1 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 1:33pm

C   Offline
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Quote:
and for flight planning, how do i calculate the most economic altitude and the resulting speed (indicated, true, over ground), and what parameters do i have to have to start this calculation in the first place?


You look in the aircraft's technical/aircrew manual. Smiley Some test pilot would have worked it out for you.


Are capital letters at the start of sentences optional nowadays? Grin
 
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Reply #2 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 1:49pm

SimFly   Offline
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never mind, i'll ask that question where no spelling nazis are around.
 
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Reply #3 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 2:10pm

C   Offline
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Take it as you will. The first part of my answer was entirely serious. If you want to disregard it, feel free... Roll Eyes

Quote:
never mind, i'll ask that question where no spelling nazis are around.


It was a joke, and grammar, not spelling. Wink


My heartfelt apologies for taking the time to bother to answer your question.
 
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Reply #4 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 2:15pm

ozzy72   Offline
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Charlie you are in the right as it does state in the sign-up to please use correct English. No txt spk or the like. Speaking as a teacher of English I find this sort of thing depressing Sad
 

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Reply #5 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 2:59pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
Charlie you are in the right as it does state in the sign-up to please use correct English. No txt spk or the like. Speaking as a teacher of English I find this sort of thing depressing Sad

Though your full stops seem rather sporadic it must be said. Grin
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #6 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 3:09pm

ozzy72   Offline
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There is nowt wrong wiv my punctution! Now get off that toilet and let someone else have a number 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Reply #7 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 3:19pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
There is nowt wrong wiv my punctution! Now get off that toilet and let someone else have a number 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is. Aside from the excessive use of exclamation marks in that post you also emitted the full stop from the previous one. Grin

Dear me. They say the standard of teaching is going down. Grin Grin Wink Kiss
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #8 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 3:24pm

SimFly   Offline
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well, to the part you did answer:
i figured that out all by myself. i was asking for figures or a way to aquire them without going out to buy manuals for the actual planes, which might be accurate when used with FS or not.

aside from that, most places i chat it's considered bad manners to use caps at all, unless it's for emphasis or terms like GPS. so i gradually dropped them. nobody ever minded me NOT using caps.
your remark makes for a nice welcome and i can see now why you guys here got a reputation for being snobs.
 
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Reply #9 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 3:48pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
your remark makes for a nice welcome and i can see now why you guys here got a reputation for being snobs.

So thats why none of the other sites like us. Grin
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #10 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 4:00pm

C   Offline
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Quote:
So thats why none of the other sites like us. Grin


The secret's out!

I think it's more the fact that some of us are old fashioned, like to read properly constructed sentences (spelling mistakes are allowed, even I make them). It also sets a good example to others whilst we watch the educational standards of the mother country descend into modern depths.

Quote:
i figured that out all by myself.


My apologies. If you'd written it in the style of someone who might actually understand, I may have credited you with that. Unfortunately it was impossible to tell whether you were 12 or 22! My degree isn't in mindreading, which is probably a good thing.

Quote:
most places i chat it's considered bad manners to use caps at all


Well, here it's considered good manners to use them. It makes it easier for our older (over 21), more partially sighted users (whether medically, or alcoholically) to read.  Grin

If not, Ozzy will either liberally cover you using marmalade, or even issue a SASBO (SimV Anti-Social Behaviour Order).
 
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Reply #11 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 4:20pm

ozzy72   Offline
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I've just eaten the last of the marmalade.... we'll have to use boiling Marmite instead Shocked Grin
 

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Reply #12 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 4:24pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
we'll have to use boiling Marmite instead Shocked Grin

Shocked A fate worse than death itself. Shocked

Now, is anyone going to answer this chap's question? We can convert him to our ways at our leisure. Cheesy

PS. Don't look at me. I'm a simple bush pilot. This stuff is way over my head.
 

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Reply #13 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 4:26pm

SimFly   Offline
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sorry, english isn't my first language. i really did think i asked for figures.

for the "other issue":
i wonder who's of age here anyway, because wise guy remarks about typing cutting out the original subject is usually the mark of teenie boards.
 
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Reply #14 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 4:29pm

C   Offline
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Quote:
Now, is anyone going to answer this chap's question? We can convert him to our ways at our leisure. Cheesy


Well, the logical way is to take an aeroplane, such as the Learjet, and fly given altitudes for set time, and from that do a simple fuel burn calculation (fuel used/time) for each altitude at certain, or one set, speeds. The joy of FS is you can easily slew to each, and make sure you have an identical fuel load at the start of each run. A couple of hours flying would give a fair range.
 
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Reply #15 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 4:52pm

SimFly   Offline
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yeah well, i kinda thought i mentioned that method in my original post.
my question was if someone can give me the figures, either because he's been there and done that, or knows where i can find the figures of someone who's been there and done that, without me going out and buy a bunch of manuals that, even if the accuracy of the FS flight models is close enough, cost more money than i'm willing to spend on this hobby.

failing that, what other parameters are of relevance besides altitude (and here's the next question: "above sealevel", "pressure altitude", "density altitude"?) have to go into the algoritm to produce reliable and reproducable figures?
 
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Reply #16 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 5:09pm

C   Offline
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failing that, what other parameters are of relevance besides altitude (and here's the next question: "above sealevel", "pressure altitude", "density altitude"?) have to go into the algoritm to produce reliable and reproducable figures?


At the levels that an aircraft such as the Learjet would operate (and here's a point - are you in the US or somewhere else) you would be on the SPS (Standard pressure setting) of 1013mb, as you'd be operating above the transition altitude (anywhere between 2500ft to 4500ft normally in the UK, but fixed at 18000ft I believe in the US) - so at whatever FL you were operating at you would be at (for example) FL240 = 24000ft on 1013mb. (FL200=20000ft, FL350 = 35000ft etc). So that is taken into account.

Other factors that could be taken into account would be OAT (Outside Air Temperature), although that would of course be more relevant for take off/landing performance, but it would influence the air density etc.

I'm sure there are plenty of other factors but off the top of my head, I drawing a blank at the moment
 
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Reply #17 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 8:24pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
for the "other issue":
i wonder who's of age here anyway, because wise guy remarks about typing cutting out the original subject is usually the mark of teenie boards.


I'd guess that the average member age here is near thirty. And even at that, I'd say that the maturity level those younger members is greater than their chronological age. Partly because the elder members try to keep the younger members on their toes; not only grammatically, but in general. Partly because the younger members return the favor and keep the old guys alert too.

When you visit a forum for the first time; even forgetting that your first impression is made by what (if any) pride you take in displaying your words/thoughts... it's always a good idea to respect the standards of that forum.

If a person would put as much effort into using proper grammar, and trying to spell correctly, as they do complaining about having it pointed out to them... everything would be ...... Oh nevermind   Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #18 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 9:39pm

Mobius   Offline
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From "Turbojet Cycle Analysis" in my Thermodyanamics textbook:

"The things that affect turbojet "cycle": the inlet (atmospheric) pressure, the inlet (atmospheric) temperature, the inlet velocity (which is typically the flight speed of the aircraft), the compressor pressure ratio, the turbine inlet temperature (usually determined by the metallurgical considerations and must be below values that lead to turbine failure), the pressure at the exhaust nozzle, and the isentropic effects of each component are all values that are found or given to be used in the analysis of a turbojet, as are the assumptions that the kinetic energies of the flow can be neglected at all stations except at the inlet and outlet, potential energy changes are negligible throughout the engine, and accessory loads to the engine are negligible.  These parameters and values can be used to analyze a turbojet engine in a basic manner, and can be used to find other properties, such as specific thrust (force of thrust/ mass flow-rate of air) and specific fuel consumtion (SFC) (mass flow-rate of fuel/ force of thrust)."

In other words, I have absolutely no idea whatsoever. 

Sorry, I'm just so very bored right now. Grin Wink
 

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Reply #19 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 12:00pm

SimFly   Offline
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Quote:
I'd guess that the average member age here is near thirty. And even at that, I'd say that the maturity level those younger members is greater than their chronological age. Partly because the elder members try to keep the younger members on their toes; not only grammatically, but in general. Partly because the younger members return the favor and keep the old guys alert too.

When you visit a forum for the first time; even forgetting that your first impression is made by what (if any) pride you take in displaying your words/thoughts... it's always a good idea to respect the standards of that forum.

If a person would put as much effort into using proper grammar, and trying to spell correctly, as they do complaining about having it pointed out to them... everything would be ...... Oh nevermind   Roll Eyes


if it would have been "pointed out to me" i might have given it an effort. as it is, some residents having fun on the expense of an outsider, i don't see any reason why i should.

what this looks like is a closed group telling each other to be better than anyone else. that is no "high maturity level".
and since i still didn't get an answer that goes beyond rephrasing my original post, not as knowledgable as they like to think they are either.

but never fear, in the meantime i found a board where there's people who actually know what they doing.
 
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Reply #20 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 1:35pm

C   Offline
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I apologise for trying to help...


The strange thing is, you're getting all excited about a tongue in cheek comment that wasn't pompous and happens to have a huge JOKING smiley next to it!


LIGHTEN UP! Grin
 
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Reply #21 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 4:22pm

SimFly   Offline
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you're right, it wasn't pompous, it was patronizing. and the "huge joking smiley" didn't make it any less insulting. and i wasn't talking about you alone, but the whole bunch of playground bullies that joined in.
a good sign of maturity is awareness of the line between humor and insult, and at least rough knowledge where it is.
another sign of maturity is the ability to see one has crossed the line, perhaps accidently, and to give a sincere appology, not one that is meant to justify the insult.

and you propably wouldn't find it strange at all if you'd at least tried to look at it from the other side.
 
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Reply #22 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 6:35pm

C   Offline
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Quote:
you're right, it wasn't pompous, it was patronizing. and the "huge joking smiley" didn't make it any less insulting. and i wasn't talking about you alone, but the whole bunch of playground bullies that joined in.


Or, you may find it was a kindly concealed polite request.

I think the other may have joined in when you sent the big N word my way perhaps...

I happen to not be a Nazi of any sort, and I think people would find that far more insulting young chap.
 
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Reply #23 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 7:42pm

SimFly   Offline
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well, kid, in that case you should stop acting like one.
anyways, greetings to the rest of the playground gang, i'm outa here
 
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Reply #24 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 4:47pm

C   Offline
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Quote:
well, kid, in that case you should stop acting like one.


You've obviously met some then? We were only hoping you might abide by our sensible forum rules.

Quote:
anyways, greetings to the rest of the playground gang, i'm outa here


Good, because you seem to have a "small" attitude problem which will be better served elsewhere. God forbid they ever let you near a real aeroplane either.
 
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Reply #25 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 7:08pm

beaky   Offline
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Wha?

Did that just happen?


Hm. The fact that SimFly had no luck with his very specific request elsewhere- forcing him to venture through the gauntlet of English-language textbook-wielding "bullies"here at the Big V-  suggests to me that he found no luck elsewhere. What did he expect? Some uber-geek sitting amongst piles of empirical flight test data for every FS model ever loaded, ready to dispense tidbits of wisdom upon request?
And for f*ck's sake, he already had published results to start from... Roll Eyes

It's a doggone sim; you have to experiment yourself to discover things like that about these models.

Something tells me he was just spoiling for a debate or something... I can't understand why some people bother doing that. Life's too short...

And about the caps and periods: let's all bear in mind that I'm a lousy typist and often too busy to proofread (my own posts) most of the time, okay? Grin
Seeing as how I am an incredible overbearing snob like all the rest of you, I think some allowance might be made... please don't pick on me!!

Cry
 

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Reply #26 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 7:27pm

C   Offline
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Quote:
And about the caps and periods: let's all bear in mind that I'm a lousy typist and often too busy to proofread (my own posts) most of the time, okay? Grin


Okay...

Quote:
Wha?


Shouldn't that be "What?" Sean? Wink Grin Grin Grin
 
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Reply #27 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 8:15pm

beaky   Offline
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Quote:
Okay...


Shouldn't that be "What?" Sean? Wink Grin Grin Grin



No, no... it's a perfectly acceptable colloquialism... as if dazed, you see... refer to "Woppen?"... Grin
 

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Reply #28 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 8:21pm

Mobius   Offline
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Shouldn't your post have started out, "Wha?........Woppen?"  Tongue Grin

I talk English good. Lips Sealed Grin
 

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Reply #29 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 9:24pm

skwang   Offline
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Having seen and read a great deal of the recorded history on Nazis, I would really hesitate to refer to anyone as a Nazi or Hitler unless it is a truly horrendous act.  By referring to folks who may be sticklers on some subjects as Nazis really cheapens what the real Nazis did.  If there really were "spelling Nazi" around many of us would have been shipped off already.

Also as someone who has always struggled with spelling and grammar I would hate to see someone chased off after being embarrassed by their spelling or grammar.  To constantly belittle someone with poor spelling and/or grammar has the effect of silencing their voice and discounting their thoughts and ideas.

Skwang

The top is after I spellchecked the bottom before, I know I have a weakness in spelling I use tools to compensate.

www.spellcheck.net works pritty good.

Having seen a great deal of the recorded history on Nazis, I would really hesitate to refer to anyone as a Nazi or Hitler unless it is a truely horendies act.  By refering to folks who may be sticklers on some subjects as Nazis really cheapins what the real Nazis did.  If there really were "spelling Nazi" around many of us would have been shipped off already.

Also as somone who has always struggled with spelling and gramer I would hate to see somone chaised off after being embaressed by their spelling or grammer.  To constantly bellitlle somone with poor spelling and/or grammer has the effect of silencing their voice and discounting their thoughts and ideas.

Skwang
 
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Reply #30 - Nov 30th, 2006 at 9:30pm

beaky   Offline
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Quote:
www.spellcheck.net works pritty good.



Cheesy  Cheesy 


Wink
 

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Reply #31 - Dec 1st, 2006 at 12:21am

Mobius   Offline
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I didn't want to say anything....

Grin Wink
 

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Reply #32 - Dec 15th, 2006 at 11:27pm

mossdog   Offline
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Hey i just wanted to say how i think it was totally unfair the way that guy shouted his mouth off and that your not snobby or whatever he said at all. I was probably just like him and wanted to make a post so skipped most of the terms page but i dont think thats an excuse for him to start tlkn a loada unredble cr*p like dis. Also im 17 and i dont want you people to think that people our age all talk like that . We're not all idiots.

Despite that i had no idea what the hell he was talking about with all his "economics". While i understand that it is a sim, personally i think that its still important to realise that its a computer game. Its designed to be fun and honestly, if hes worried about the best height to fly at to conserve fuel at his age then maybe he deserved to be picked on by the "bullies". Dont think im having a stab at any of you people that do find it fun to make it as realistic as possible because i do to but im just saying that i get my kicks from flying not maths.
 
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Reply #33 - Jun 21st, 2007 at 2:47pm

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Sorry, I hate to necro post, but if there is one thing I hate more than necro posting, its when mommy and daddy fight...

Grin
 
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Reply #34 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 1:36am

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Hagar wrote on Oct 30th, 2006 at 4:24pm:
Quote:
we'll have to use boiling Marmite instead Shocked Grin

Shocked A fate worse than death itself. Shocked

Now, is anyone going to answer this chap's question? We can convert him to our ways at our leisure. Cheesy

PS. Don't look at me. I'm a simple bush pilot. This stuff is way over my head.


So there is a fate worse than a fate worse than death Grin

Matt
 

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