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economics (Read 4265 times)
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 1:27pm
SimFly
Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 9
once upon a time i read an article on the economics of the learjet, where it was explained with a bunch of diagrams that the most economic speed and altitude is 220 knots at the altitude where it equals .75 mach, which is around 45'000 feet, depending on air temp. (the figures might be off a little, i'm going from memory here)
a comment that this is acurately depicted in FS2000 got me a hit on google while looking for something else.
does anyone know what the most economic speed/altitude for the FS stock planes are, or failing that, how it can be measured other than doing a lot of flights and compare the actual burned up fuel afterwards?
and for flight planning, how do i calculate the most economic altitude and the resulting speed (indicated, true, over ground) for a given flight, and what parameters do i have to have to start this calculation in the first place?
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Reply #1 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 1:33pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
and for flight planning, how do i calculate the most economic altitude and the resulting speed (indicated, true, over ground), and what parameters do i have to have to start this calculation in the first place?
You look in the aircraft's technical/aircrew manual.
Some test pilot would have worked it out for you.
Are capital letters at the start of sentences optional nowadays?
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Reply #2 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 1:49pm
SimFly
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Lieutenant Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 9
never mind, i'll ask that question where no spelling nazis are around.
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Reply #3 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 2:10pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Take it as you will. The first part of my answer was entirely serious. If you want to disregard it, feel free...
Quote:
never mind, i'll ask that question where no spelling nazis are around.
It was a joke, and grammar, not spelling.
My heartfelt apologies for taking the time to bother to answer your question.
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Reply #4 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 2:15pm
ozzy72
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Global Moderator
Pretty scary huh?
Madsville
Gender:
Posts: 37122
Charlie you are in the right as it does state in the sign-up to please use correct English. No txt spk or the like. Speaking as a teacher of English I find this sort of thing depressing
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #5 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 2:59pm
Woodlouse2002
Offline
Colonel
I like jam.
Cornwall, England
Gender:
Posts: 12574
Quote:
Charlie you are in the right as it does state in the sign-up to please use correct English. No txt spk or the like. Speaking as a teacher of English I find this sort of thing depressing
Though your full stops seem rather sporadic it must be said.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #6 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 3:09pm
ozzy72
Offline
Global Moderator
Pretty scary huh?
Madsville
Gender:
Posts: 37122
There is nowt wrong wiv my punctution! Now get off that toilet and let someone else have a number 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #7 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 3:19pm
Woodlouse2002
Offline
Colonel
I like jam.
Cornwall, England
Gender:
Posts: 12574
Quote:
There is nowt wrong wiv my punctution! Now get off that toilet and let someone else have a number 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is. Aside from the excessive use of exclamation marks in that post you also emitted the full stop from the previous one.
Dear me. They say the standard of teaching is going down.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #8 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 3:24pm
SimFly
Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 9
well, to the part you did answer:
i figured that out all by myself. i was asking for figures or a way to aquire them without going out to buy manuals for the actual planes, which might be accurate when used with FS or not.
aside from that, most places i chat it's considered bad manners to use caps at all, unless it's for emphasis or terms like GPS. so i gradually dropped them. nobody ever minded me NOT using caps.
your remark makes for a nice welcome and i can see now why you guys here got a reputation for being snobs.
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Reply #9 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 3:48pm
Woodlouse2002
Offline
Colonel
I like jam.
Cornwall, England
Gender:
Posts: 12574
Quote:
your remark makes for a nice welcome and i can see now why you guys here got a reputation for being snobs.
So thats why none of the other sites like us.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #10 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 4:00pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
So thats why none of the other sites like us.
The secret's out!
I think it's more the fact that some of us are old fashioned, like to read properly constructed sentences (spelling mistakes are allowed, even
I
make them). It also sets a good example to others whilst we watch the educational standards of the mother country descend into modern depths.
Quote:
i figured that out all by myself.
My apologies. If you'd written it in the style of someone who might actually understand, I may have credited you with that. Unfortunately it was impossible to tell whether you were 12 or 22! My degree isn't in mindreading, which is probably a good thing.
Quote:
most places i chat it's considered bad manners to use caps at all
Well, here it's considered good manners to use them. It makes it easier for our older (over 21), more partially sighted users (whether medically, or alcoholically) to read.
If not, Ozzy will either liberally cover you using marmalade, or even issue a SASBO (SimV Anti-Social Behaviour Order).
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Reply #11 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 4:20pm
ozzy72
Offline
Global Moderator
Pretty scary huh?
Madsville
Gender:
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I've just eaten the last of the marmalade.... we'll have to use boiling Marmite instead
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #12 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 4:24pm
Hagar
Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
Quote:
we'll have to use boiling Marmite instead
A fate worse than death itself.
Now, is anyone going to answer this chap's question? We can convert him to our ways at our leisure.
PS. Don't look at me. I'm a simple bush pilot. This stuff is way over my head.
Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
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Reply #13 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 4:26pm
SimFly
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Lieutenant Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 9
sorry, english isn't my first language. i really did think i asked for figures.
for the "other issue":
i wonder who's of age here anyway, because wise guy remarks about typing cutting out the original subject is usually the mark of teenie boards.
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Reply #14 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 4:29pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
Now, is anyone going to answer this chap's question? We can convert him to our ways at our leisure.
Well, the logical way is to take an aeroplane, such as the Learjet, and fly given altitudes for set time, and from that do a simple fuel burn calculation (fuel used/time) for each altitude at certain, or one set, speeds. The joy of FS is you can easily slew to each, and make sure you have an identical fuel load at the start of each run. A couple of hours flying would give a fair range.
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Reply #15 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 4:52pm
SimFly
Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 9
yeah well, i kinda thought i mentioned that method in my original post.
my question was if someone can give me the figures, either because he's been there and done that, or knows where i can find the figures of someone who's been there and done that, without me going out and buy a bunch of manuals that, even if the accuracy of the FS flight models is close enough, cost more money than i'm willing to spend on this hobby.
failing that, what other parameters are of relevance besides altitude (and here's the next question: "above sealevel", "pressure altitude", "density altitude"?) have to go into the algoritm to produce reliable and reproducable figures?
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Reply #16 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 5:09pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
failing that, what other parameters are of relevance besides altitude (and here's the next question: "above sealevel", "pressure altitude", "density altitude"?) have to go into the algoritm to produce reliable and reproducable figures?
At the levels that an aircraft such as the Learjet would operate (and here's a point - are you in the US or somewhere else) you would be on the SPS (Standard pressure setting) of 1013mb, as you'd be operating above the transition altitude (anywhere between 2500ft to 4500ft normally in the UK, but fixed at 18000ft I believe in the US) - so at whatever FL you were operating at you would be at (for example) FL240 = 24000ft on 1013mb. (FL200=20000ft, FL350 = 35000ft etc). So that is taken into account.
Other factors that
could
be taken into account would be OAT (Outside Air Temperature), although that would of course be more relevant for take off/landing performance, but it would influence the air density etc.
I'm sure there are plenty of other factors but off the top of my head, I drawing a blank at the moment
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Reply #17 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 8:24pm
Brett_Henderson
Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB
Gender:
Posts: 3593
Quote:
for the "other issue":
i wonder who's of age here anyway, because wise guy remarks about typing cutting out the original subject is usually the mark of teenie boards.
I'd guess that the average member age here is near thirty. And even at that, I'd say that the maturity level those younger members is greater than their chronological age. Partly because the elder members try to keep the younger members on their toes; not only grammatically, but in general. Partly because the younger members return the favor and keep the old guys alert too.
When you visit a forum for the first time; even forgetting that your first impression is made by what (if any) pride you take in displaying your words/thoughts... it's always a good idea to respect the standards of that forum.
If a person would put as much effort into using proper grammar, and trying to spell correctly, as they do complaining about having it pointed out to them... everything would be ...... Oh nevermind
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Reply #18 -
Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 9:39pm
Mobius
Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin
Posts: 4369
From "Turbojet Cycle Analysis" in my Thermodyanamics textbook:
"The things that affect turbojet "cycle": the inlet (atmospheric) pressure, the inlet (atmospheric) temperature, the inlet velocity (which is typically the flight speed of the aircraft), the compressor pressure ratio, the turbine inlet temperature (usually determined by the metallurgical considerations and must be below values that lead to turbine failure), the pressure at the exhaust nozzle, and the isentropic effects of each component are all values that are found or given to be used in the analysis of a turbojet, as are the assumptions that the kinetic energies of the flow can be neglected at all stations except at the inlet and outlet, potential energy changes are negligible throughout the engine, and accessory loads to the engine are negligible. These parameters and values can be used to analyze a turbojet engine in a basic manner, and can be used to find other properties, such as specific thrust (force of thrust/ mass flow-rate of air) and specific fuel consumtion (SFC) (mass flow-rate of fuel/ force of thrust)."
In other words, I have absolutely no idea whatsoever.
Sorry, I'm just so very bored right now.
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Reply #19 -
Nov 1
st
, 2006 at 12:00pm
SimFly
Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 9
Quote:
I'd guess that the average member age here is near thirty. And even at that, I'd say that the maturity level those younger members is greater than their chronological age. Partly because the elder members try to keep the younger members on their toes; not only grammatically, but in general. Partly because the younger members return the favor and keep the old guys alert too.
When you visit a forum for the first time; even forgetting that your first impression is made by what (if any) pride you take in displaying your words/thoughts... it's always a good idea to respect the standards of that forum.
If a person would put as much effort into using proper grammar, and trying to spell correctly, as they do complaining about having it pointed out to them... everything would be ...... Oh nevermind
if it would have been "pointed out to me" i might have given it an effort. as it is, some residents having fun on the expense of an outsider, i don't see any reason why i should.
what this looks like is a closed group telling each other to be better than anyone else. that is no "high maturity level".
and since i still didn't get an answer that goes beyond rephrasing my original post, not as knowledgable as they like to think they are either.
but never fear, in the meantime i found a board where there's people who actually know what they doing.
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Reply #20 -
Nov 1
st
, 2006 at 1:35pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
I apologise for trying to help...
The strange thing is, you're getting all excited about a tongue in cheek comment that wasn't pompous and happens to have a huge JOKING smiley next to it!
LIGHTEN UP!
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Reply #21 -
Nov 1
st
, 2006 at 4:22pm
SimFly
Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 9
you're right, it wasn't pompous, it was patronizing. and the "huge joking smiley" didn't make it any less insulting. and i wasn't talking about you alone, but the whole bunch of playground bullies that joined in.
a good sign of maturity is awareness of the line between humor and insult, and at least rough knowledge where it is.
another sign of maturity is the ability to see one has crossed the line, perhaps accidently, and to give a sincere appology, not one that is meant to justify the insult.
and you propably wouldn't find it strange at all if you'd at least tried to look at it from the other side.
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Reply #22 -
Nov 1
st
, 2006 at 6:35pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
you're right, it wasn't pompous, it was patronizing. and the "huge joking smiley" didn't make it any less insulting. and i wasn't talking about you alone, but the whole bunch of playground bullies that joined in.
Or, you may find it was a kindly concealed
polite
request.
I think the other may have joined in when you sent the big N word my way perhaps...
I happen to not be a Nazi of any sort, and I think people would find that far more insulting young chap.
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Reply #23 -
Nov 1
st
, 2006 at 7:42pm
SimFly
Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 9
well, kid, in that case you should stop acting like one.
anyways, greetings to the rest of the playground gang, i'm outa here
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Reply #24 -
Nov 2
nd
, 2006 at 4:47pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
well, kid, in that case you should stop acting like one.
You've obviously met some then? We were only hoping you might abide by our sensible forum rules.
Quote:
anyways, greetings to the rest of the playground gang, i'm outa here
Good, because you seem to have a "small" attitude problem which will be better served elsewhere. God forbid they ever let you near a real aeroplane either.
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Reply #25 -
Nov 6
th
, 2006 at 7:08pm
beaky
Offline
Global Moderator
Uhhhh.... yup!
Newark, NJ USA
Gender:
Posts: 14187
Wha?
Did that just happen?
Hm. The fact that SimFly had no luck with his very specific request elsewhere- forcing him to venture through the gauntlet of English-language textbook-wielding "bullies"here at the Big V- suggests to me that he found no luck elsewhere. What did he expect? Some uber-geek sitting amongst piles of empirical flight test data for every FS model ever loaded, ready to dispense tidbits of wisdom upon request?
And for f*ck's sake, he already had published results to start from...
It's a doggone
sim
; you have to experiment
yourself
to discover things like that about these models.
Something tells me he was just spoiling for a debate or something... I can't understand why some people bother doing that. Life's too short...
And about the caps and periods: let's all bear in mind that I'm a lousy typist and often too busy to proofread (my own posts) most of the time, okay?
Seeing as how I am an incredible overbearing snob like all the rest of you, I think some allowance might be made... please don't pick on me!!
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Reply #26 -
Nov 6
th
, 2006 at 7:27pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
And about the caps and periods: let's all bear in mind that I'm a lousy typist and often too busy to proofread (my own posts) most of the time, okay?
Okay...
Quote:
Wha?
Shouldn't that be "What?" Sean?
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Reply #27 -
Nov 6
th
, 2006 at 8:15pm
beaky
Offline
Global Moderator
Uhhhh.... yup!
Newark, NJ USA
Gender:
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Quote:
Okay...
Shouldn't that be "What?" Sean?
No, no... it's a perfectly acceptable colloquialism... as if dazed, you see... refer to "Woppen?"...
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Reply #28 -
Nov 6
th
, 2006 at 8:21pm
Mobius
Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin
Posts: 4369
Shouldn't your post have started out, "Wha?........Woppen?"
I talk English good.
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Reply #29 -
Nov 29
th
, 2006 at 9:24pm
skwang
Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 11
Having seen and read a great deal of the recorded history on Nazis, I would really hesitate to refer to anyone as a Nazi or Hitler unless it is a truly horrendous act. By referring to folks who may be sticklers on some subjects as Nazis really cheapens what the real Nazis did. If there really were "spelling Nazi" around many of us would have been shipped off already.
Also as someone who has always struggled with spelling and grammar I would hate to see someone chased off after being embarrassed by their spelling or grammar. To constantly belittle someone with poor spelling and/or grammar has the effect of silencing their voice and discounting their thoughts and ideas.
Skwang
The top is after I spellchecked the bottom before, I know I have a weakness in spelling I use tools to compensate.
www.spellcheck.net
works pritty good.
Having seen a great deal of the recorded history on Nazis, I would really hesitate to refer to anyone as a Nazi or Hitler unless it is a truely horendies act. By refering to folks who may be sticklers on some subjects as Nazis really cheapins what the real Nazis did. If there really were "spelling Nazi" around many of us would have been shipped off already.
Also as somone who has always struggled with spelling and gramer I would hate to see somone chaised off after being embaressed by their spelling or grammer. To constantly bellitlle somone with poor spelling and/or grammer has the effect of silencing their voice and discounting their thoughts and ideas.
Skwang
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Reply #30 -
Nov 30
th
, 2006 at 9:30pm
beaky
Offline
Global Moderator
Uhhhh.... yup!
Newark, NJ USA
Gender:
Posts: 14187
Quote:
www.spellcheck.net
works pritty good.
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Reply #31 -
Dec 1
st
, 2006 at 12:21am
Mobius
Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin
Posts: 4369
I didn't want to say anything....
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Reply #32 -
Dec 15
th
, 2006 at 11:27pm
mossdog
Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 68
Hey i just wanted to say how i think it was totally unfair the way that guy shouted his mouth off and that your not snobby or whatever he said at all. I was probably just like him and wanted to make a post so skipped most of the terms page but i dont think thats an excuse for him to start tlkn a loada unredble cr*p like dis. Also im 17 and i dont want you people to think that people our age all talk like that . We're not all idiots.
Despite that i had no idea what the hell he was talking about with all his "economics". While i understand that it is a sim, personally i think that its still important to realise that its a computer game. Its designed to be fun and honestly, if hes worried about the best height to fly at to conserve fuel at his age then maybe he deserved to be picked on by the "bullies". Dont think im having a stab at any of you people that do find it fun to make it as realistic as possible because i do to but im just saying that i get my kicks from flying not maths.
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Reply #33 -
Jun 21
st
, 2007 at 2:47pm
Pappy44
Offline
Colonel
I Fly Sim!
Maryland Heights, MO
Gender:
Posts: 253
Sorry, I hate to necro post, but if there is one thing I hate more than necro posting, its when mommy and daddy fight...
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Reply #34 -
Jun 26
th
, 2007 at 1:36am
expat
Offline
Colonel
Deep behind enemy lines!
Gender:
Posts: 8499
Hagar wrote
on Oct 30
th
, 2006 at 4:24pm:
Quote:
we'll have to use boiling Marmite instead
A fate worse than death itself.
Now, is anyone going to answer this chap's question? We can convert him to our ways at our leisure.
PS. Don't look at me. I'm a simple bush pilot. This stuff is way over my head.
So there is a fate worse than a fate worse than death
Matt
PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals.
B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
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